Documentary wedding photography with Rangefinder Rising Star, Janina Brocklesby

We recently had the absolute pleasure of chatting with the award-winning Janina Brocklesby of Reportage Studios, who shared her incredible journey and wisdom in the world of documentary wedding photography. With numerous awards and accolades under her belt from Masters of Wedding Photography, This is Reportage, Fearless and Rangefinder's Rising Stars, Janina gave us an inside look at the secrets behind her success and how she navigates the ever-changing wedding industry.

Working in tandem with her photography business partner and second shooter, Janina revealed the importance of effective delegation and communication during wedding shoots, as well as the power of documentary-style photography to capture the essence of a couple's special day. Furthermore, our conversation delved into Janina's experience with impostor syndrome in the photography world and how it has shaped her work. 

Throughout this engaging episode, Janina also discussed various key topics, such as understanding couple relationships through photography, wedding photography communication, and creating captivating moments in her images. Her unique perspective and advice are truly invaluable for photographers at any stage in their career. So why not join us for this enlightening and inspiring conversation with the phenomenal Janina Brocklesby?

Thank you so much for joining us Janina!

Reportage Studios' website: https://reportage-studios.com/
Follow Reportage Studios on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reportagestudios/

Join us in the Flash Masters community:

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YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters

Flash Masters is hosted by:

Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/

Transcript

Intro 0:01

Welcome to the Flash Masters podcast. Flash Masters recognizes and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through education, awards and community. To find out more and to join the Flash Masters community, visit flashmasters. co. Here are your hosts, Helen Williams and Neil Redfern.

Helen Williams 0:27

Hello there and welcome to episode 40 of the Flash Masters podcast with me, Helen Williams and me, Neil Redfern. And today we have a special guest with us And we always say, whenever we have a guest, when we're not going to tell you it's going to be a surprise, but as usual, it's going to be in the title.

Neil Redfern 0:44

Unless it's not, we don't know yet. Oh no, of course it will be in the title.

Helen Williams 0:48

So yes, today we are joined with the incredible Jundefined Brockelsby of Reportage studios.

Neil Redfern 0:54

Thank you very much to joining us, Janina. Hi guys, thank you very much for having me. Oh, it's Janina absolute pleasure. Janina is a serial award winner, so I feel like we're not worthy, we're not worthy.

Helen Williams 1:05

Yeah, she's an absolute badass in the wedding industry. We absolutely adore her. It's lovely to have us here in our living room, so thank you for making the journey to see us anina J.

Janina Brocklesby 1:15

Absolute pleasure.

Helen Williams 1:16

Before we go into chatting with you today, though, do we have any Flash Masters news, neil.

Neil Redfern 1:23

You were going to say the news, and then I talk about what the news is.

Helen Williams 1:26

Yes, see 40 episodes in.

Neil Redfern 1:28

You need to see in live. I haven't read those into this, Okay so. Literally 30 seconds ago, you announced the new tell and I'll talk about the news.

Helen Williams 1:36

Brilliant. So on Tuesday, the 20th of June, at 8pm BST, which is 3pm EST and 12pm PDT, i'm getting so good at all these different time zones now. Once still have loads. I'm good at time zones. Yes, at 8pm BST on Tuesday, the 20th of June, Neil, you're doing another live stream for us.

Neil Redfern 1:57

Yeah, this is going to be part two of my introduction to Off-camera Flash Stream, so we did part one last month and that was really well received. I really enjoyed doing that. In that stream I talked about the equipment that I used, the modifiers that I used, why I use it, the settings that I use and in this stream coming up in well, next week, isn't it? Yes, i would talk in more about go to setups that you can use to create really cool images in virtually any environment, and the setups that I use for speeches for first dance. So it will just give you confidence to know that whatever you're faced with, you can use Off-camera Flash to help you produce really cool images. So I'm really looking forward to that stream. It should be a good one. So that is going to be next week.

Helen Williams 2:37

Yes, very much looking forward to that. The response from the first one was absolutely incredible, so I think everyone's going to really enjoy having a series of go to images or lighting setups that they can apply practically when they're out and working.

Neil Redfern 2:50

I hope so. Just to say as well as I was going to interrupt. Yet, as always, every stream that we produce will be available to re-watch in the Flashmasters member zone from the next day, and it's already loads and loads of videos in there. Part one is already in there and part two will be in there the following day after it's recorded.

Helen Williams 3:06

I was about to ask you that question, so well done, you've taken this.

Neil Redfern 3:10

Thank you. It's like you didn't know the answer yourself.

Helen Williams 3:13

I did. I know what I'm doing. I'm pro 40 episodes Anyway enough.

Neil Redfern 3:16

Flashmasters news. This episode is all about Janina.

Helen Williams 3:20

Yay. So today we are joined by the Janina of Reportage Studios and we're going to be asking her, obviously, lots about her career and also about how she's winning so many awards too. She is a multiple award winner. Her CV is incredible, including awards from Masters Fearless. She's won the nine dots print competition, which the standard was crazy high, two years running. It's picked up plenty with. this is Reportage and just to top all that off, this year was announced as one of range finders rising stars And right now that is a roll call.

Helen Williams 3:56

As I'm speaking, i can see she's literally just smirk, like just getting smaller and smaller, That's.

Neil Redfern 4:02

you were talking about J..

Janina Brocklesby 4:03

That's you. You've done all that. It really doesn't feel like it. And feels like what Really?

Neil Redfern 4:09

No, honestly, that's incredible Well done. First of all, that is a huge achievement. Not just the awards, but the rangefinder accolade especially is insane. So well done, Thank you guys.

Helen Williams 4:20

Yeah, it's the gold standard that everyone you know when they come into photography, or a lot of people I know, is like that is the holy grail of. There is no bigger accolade or achievement or like Pat on the back you can get for yourself. So well done.

Janina Brocklesby 4:33

Thank you very much. It was a shock, but how do you?

Neil Redfern 4:36

actually find out about these things you did. This is, like it sounds like a very odd question, like how do you? is it just an email or is just the email.

Janina Brocklesby 4:43

Yes, and there is a funny story to this email. It came on a day, the same day, when I had some sort of complaint which nothing was kind of to do with my couple.

Neil Redfern 4:53

But yeah, we can go back to it or yeah, I want to know, like I want to know where you were when you opened the email. Were you expecting the email?

Janina Brocklesby 5:01

I wasn't expecting email. We were getting all the people I think in a final I don't know how many is in a final, final round where you have to submit your portfolio And it's quite actually big process you have to go through. You have to describe your style of shooting, style of editing is a lot of writing as well as looking for the images And I think a lot depends on what you actually put and how you represent your work in written words, as well as your work?

Neil Redfern 5:29

I did not know.

Janina Brocklesby 5:30

Yeah, that's, i think, quite a big part of it. And then we got emails saying, oh, it's going to be another week and it's going to be another week. And I think at that point I didn't expect anything to come And I kind of set myself for not going to get it. I totally was surprised. I was sitting at home on the sofa and I screamed the house down Absolutely screamed the house down And believe it or not. I've actually emailed back saying if they got a right person, Because I really didn't believe it Yeah.

Neil Redfern 6:01

True story. No, you read, is that I can remember I was going to mention this later in the podcast. What I'll say now I can remember I don't know it would have been maybe a year ago you sending me a couple of galleries over because you said I want to enter one of these galleries into the This Is Repetage story awards. And for those aren't aware, this Is Repetage is a really great documentary based awards body And yeah, so much respect for Alan who runs this with Repetage And they have an element of their awards which he's called the story award, where you have to enter 20 images between 15 and 20, between 15 and 20.

Neil Redfern 6:33

Yeah, so it's a whole story of a wedding day, which is a really cool idea. And Yannina was interested in sending one of, i think, two or three galleries. I remember opening up the first one, thinking well, it's definitely this one, it's got to be this one, you can't produce better. And the second one, what This one's even better. I remember sending it, saying they're all exceptional. I can't remember which one I went with, but thinking each one I looked at which, thinking it's got to be that one. And they opened another one And it was even stronger, and thinking, whoa, you are seriously talented. And then again.

Neil Redfern 7:00

I just remember you not like just belittling yourself when they're replied to you? So yeah, you're very modest about how good your work is.

Janina Brocklesby 7:08

Oh, thank you so much. I just don't feel that way myself, but I guess most of us don't when it comes to our own images.

Neil Redfern 7:15

No, it goes back to the imposter syndrome thing, doesn't it Helen?

Helen Williams 7:17

We spoke about we are so similar in that And we've we've chatted sort of just before the podcast as well, and the Gidea of the moment is our Gidea. We're posting to Instagram, just like myself And this yeah, this seems to be a lot of recurring sort of themes and instances of imposter syndrome and to have someone with so many accolades and so many different awards bodies and you know the pinnacles of what we wish to achieve when we want awards as photographers you've had them all and you still look like, oh, you don't see yourself in that way. I don't think.

Janina Brocklesby 7:49

No, i don't, because I still question my photos probably every single time before I posted, before I enter anything for awards Hands. Obviously, that time I've messaged Neil to help me entering something, because the confidence is almost never there that this is definitely winner or strong enough image. And it surprised me. Even when people come to me and ask me for advice, i'm like, oh, why are you asking me? It's like you said before. It's a lot of us suffering from that. Don't know many photographers who feel super confident with the work.

Neil Redfern 8:20

Yeah, it's very honest you to say that I didn't even connect the dots when you were sending those over to me. I thought it just more of like which would you choose out of interest, rather than almost like, maybe looking for some sort of justification for even entering. I don't know. but yeah, it is very honest And I know that Helen has been continually struggling but, i think, beating it, slowly but surely, i think you're getting better, aren't you?

Helen Williams 8:41

Yeah, just holding your digital back to a plane, because after that you're like, well, if I could do that, I could post it on Instagram. Honestly, yeah, anyone suffering from an imposter syndrome just take it to yourself.

Neil Redfern 8:49

Well, that might be not that unrealistic for you, nina, but we'll find out a little bit later in the podcast. Oh dear, oh dear where this is going. Well, i know you're no straighter to a plane. I would love to do it. I would love to jump off the plane. Maybe not when you're flying them, because you're flying planes, aren't you?

Janina Brocklesby 9:01

No, when I'm flying, that could be quite dangerous Ejectity, because God knows where that plane would land or crash.

Neil Redfern 9:07

It's funny, though, because before we started recording the podcast, i asked you, Janina, like oh, it's great that you want to mention on the podcast you should be doing workshops, for example, and you think, oh, no one's listening to me And you should be doing workshops. I'm looking at your Instagram page now, which is at Reportage Studios on Instagram, and your pin post here is top 50 photographers in the world for this is Reportage top 10 photographers in the world for photographers keeping it real, and Range finds a rising star. It's just a shame, in a way, that you can't see what other people see.

Janina Brocklesby 9:38

Thank, you, i might come to the workshops then Would you like to come?

Awards Judging With Janina

Neil Redfern 9:42

Yeah, i've got to say. That was only the comments. There are no comments for you. Please message you need on Instagram at Repertar Studios and say please do workshops.

Helen Williams 9:51

Yes, absolutely, and at the same time, as well as obviously, you've won lots of awards, you've also been invited and you've judged a lot of awards as well yourself, haven't you?

Janina Brocklesby 10:00

Yes, and I have to say absolutely love that process, and that's where you can either question your work or really think, ok, I am good enough, because you see loads of other people work as well. I love judging.

Neil Redfern 10:13

I know you judge fearless. And is that your? are you ashamed? you're looking at thousands and thousands of images.

Janina Brocklesby 10:17

Yes, fearless, I think, was the biggest Yes And it took quite a while to judge. And there's the level of work. It's absolutely incredible And to stand out from already amazing work it's really hard, And that I can see why it's so hard to win Phil as a waltz, Because the standard is super high and not sounding horrible. The bat pictures really stand out as well because they just go straight away.

Neil Redfern 10:43

Yes, And that's actually a great thing to go through for your own when you're entering awards w yourself, because you'll then start to think, hang on, this probably won't stand out. For this reason, when you go through the process, of judging Absolutely.

Janina Brocklesby 10:55

It definitely helped me pick some images to enter for my own awards.

Neil Redfern 11:00

Yeah.

Janina Brocklesby 11:01

But equally then I was like oh, am I good enough.

Neil Redfern 11:03

Yeah, well, you definitely are. Before we get into all the good stuff, shall we ask do we get to know you, nina, a little bit better with some oddball questions? Oh dear, she's been looking really nervous like this. We'll get this out the way for her.

Helen Williams 11:16

Oh, yes, we are here with the hard hitting questions. So the first one if you were an animal, what animal would you be and why? Oh?

Neil Redfern 11:26

gosh. You've not prepped you, Nina, on these questions.

Janina Brocklesby 11:28

You did not prep me a bird, because I like flying.

Neil Redfern 11:32

Oh, that's nice, Probably If you use the words from the top.

Janina Brocklesby 11:35

That would be quite good.

Helen Williams 11:36

Yeah, I like it Good, yeah, i like that.

Janina Brocklesby 11:38

I don't know what bird like some good one.

Neil Redfern 11:41

I think what a good one would be.

Janina Brocklesby 11:43

Not a bloody seagull from Blackpool.

Neil Redfern 11:44

Yeah, we should mention it. You, nina, is based in sunny Blackpool in the.

Janina Brocklesby 11:49

UK, which is a I love.

Neil Redfern 11:51

Blackpool. I've got many, many memories, good and bad, from Blackpool. But no, you need, you've got memories from. Blackpool. Anybody who goes to Blackpool will not forget it.

Helen Williams 12:03

Although, to be a Blackpool seagull, they get a lot of chips. That's not bad.

Neil Redfern 12:07

Yeah, they do.

Janina Brocklesby 12:08

They have violence, they horrible things.

Neil Redfern 12:10

OK, so from me who is your hero?

Janina Brocklesby 12:14

Oh, my dad.

Neil Redfern 12:15

Oh, that's an I can't really make fun of that one. That's just a nice answer.

Janina Brocklesby 12:18

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it'll be my dad.

Neil Redfern 12:21

Oh, that's lovely. That's genuinely lovely. Yeah, i like that a lot. What's the strangest talent or skill you possess that nobody would expect? Ooh, i think I actually know the answer, but I want to see what you think.

Janina Brocklesby 12:33

Oh gosh, i'm scared. now What?

Neil Redfern 12:35

Did you read my website?

Janina Brocklesby 12:36

Oh what? Why have I?

Helen Williams 12:38

got weird talent.

Neil Redfern 12:39

We've already touched upon it.

Helen Williams 12:40

But it could be something else. Are you missing out on jumping?

Neil Redfern 12:42

to a. Yeah, I'm not in the illusion there, neil, i play violin. Oh see. See, there you go. Get the violins out. Get the violins out of there, did not? know. No, i've got to say because I remember when I found out that they say it's like what, you can fly a plane.

Janina Brocklesby 12:58

Well, I don't have a license. Oh, ok then, Because I didn't manage to finish it because of the hours of and the COVID hit. But yeah, technically fly a plane. See, that's a talent. Do you know what? It's not as hard as people think And it's easier than driving genuinely.

Neil Redfern 13:14

No way.

Janina Brocklesby 13:15

Really, yeah, like I highly recommend to anybody just to try. even have a trial lesson and you'll be surprised.

Neil Redfern 13:21

Wow.

Helen Williams 13:22

Oh, But yeah pilot Janina, I love it.

Janina Brocklesby 13:25

Yeah, One day. One day it is on my bucket list to finish it, That's for sure.

Helen Williams 13:29

Amazing. So, yeah, i'm sure you're used to 10,000 feet now anyway, Yeah, yeah, i just remember, as the plane was going up it got to 3,000, i was like, oh my God, this is so high. And after that it's all just high.

Janina Brocklesby 13:43

Yeah, it doesn't make massive difference at that point, i think, how high you are, because if you're going down, you're going down anyway.

Helen Williams 13:48

So yeah, if you're used to that, i'm sure you can jump on out. And I'm like, yeah, this is my challenge now. Janina, she needs to jump out and do a skydive.

Janina Brocklesby 13:55

Oh no, somebody says you can't do it, i just have to do it as well, don't do it, don't do it.

Working as a Team with your second photographer

Neil Redfern 14:01

OK. so, janina, let's get into the harder questions and out of the top of your questions. One of the things that I'm really fascinated about is that you obviously work as a team, don't you? Yes, but you didn't always do that. So could you just describe a little bit about where you're at now with your business, like how you both work together and how that's changed over time?

Janina Brocklesby 14:19

Yeah, that could be actually probably something we as a duo could do the workshops as well. We've got the mind ticking now, haven't we? You've got me now ticking like I'm swearing.

Neil Redfern 14:28

By the time this podcast is out. We shall only be in a couple of days. I reckon there will be a workshop page on your website.

Janina Brocklesby 14:36

So we met on a wedding where I was associating. It was a big fusion wedding, english and Muslim traditions pulled together And I've asked the person I was associating for to get someone to help me organizing the group photos, because the list was huge and I knew that people won't listen to me And I'm not great with organizing group shots. So she got jaw at and yeah, rest is history. We met on that wedding day, worked really well together And since I think I've asked him to couple of times second shoot for me and it works really well I got him to do things I absolutely hate.

Neil Redfern 15:18

That's what I love. Remember a few years ago, when we were speaking about this and you would say, oh, i've got a second shooter, he's done the group shots. He's like I want this, i want to use him. He said, no, he's all mine. Like I thought oh, this is the dream I did say that actually.

Janina Brocklesby 15:33

Yeah, i just knew he's really good with group shots and it's not something I like the most because I love my documentary photography and the moments and watching people rather than organizing them and the details. So his main jobs while shooting with me was to capture group shots and details. Yeah, we worked together on a couple of weddings. I really liked what he did and I really liked the moments in between and things I saw from him. I was like this guy's got a huge talent but it doesn't show it enough. And then COVID hit, so there was a lot of, obviously, time and I had to sit around and talk and we just thought why don't we just combine it together? Because, equally, i knew that his work is amazing and I want that to be seen and recognized as well.

Neil Redfern 16:16

Yes.

Janina Brocklesby 16:17

Because the galleries we produced, they were joined. It wasn't just my work, so yeah, so we decided to go report our studios, that's brilliant.

Neil Redfern 16:25

What I love most about that is when you said at the beginning there how you would get a second shooter initially and you wanted that second shooter to do group shots and details because they weren't your strong point. If you're not, if you're listening to this and you're not aware of Yunus' work, it's actually well, your work is always stunning, but it's documentary where you obviously excel, that really natural moment, and obviously that means that group shots, details not really your thing But most people don't see second shooters like that. Do they think, oh, the second shooter's gonna just get the other stuff the other way around and you've got to get what a lot of people would think of as being the boring stuff, but you've got to do it because you're the first photographer, you've got to do that. I love the approach of twisting that round and thinking that's not where I excel, so let somebody else do that. They're better at that than me, so let them do them.

Janina Brocklesby 17:11

I think there's two things here. I've seen one of them. I think it was Gary Vee. Actually, He always said higher people who are good at things, you suck.

Janina Brocklesby 17:20

Yes, and that stuck to my head so much. And equally, i knew that my couples book me for my documentary work, so I knew the details not as important And that was my method, to my madness which, like I said, it sounds crazy to some photographers to do that. But equally, if you get as a documentary, let's say photographer, if you get good second shooter, not somebody just starting out you know they can save photos, so why not to trust them on that?

Neil Redfern 17:51

I agree. I think it's just such a different way of thinking about it, isn't it? And I remember being like my mind would blow when you first said that. It's like I was just jealous, thinking because that makes your job better as well for you, doesn't it? Like you're thinking, i'm now creatively free to go and look for moments. I'm not being burdened by thinking, well, I've got to do group shots in 10 minutes, so I can't afford to wait for this moment to happen. So you're both doing your strength. It's just amazing. you've found someone who is happy to do what a lot of us think. Oh God, it's that part of the day again.

Janina Brocklesby 18:21

He's not anymore now. Okay, who doesn't know then? So he will organise them an hour click basically. And we do them really fast. We've got a system which works literally 10 minutes done.

Neil Redfern 18:33

Yeah, that's good.

Helen Williams 18:34

Yeah, it must be really, really nice. when you do have that person to click with, You know how the other person works. Yeah just the advantage of working together must be amazing. The me and Neil are looking at each other like, yeah, we'll never do that.

Neil Redfern 18:45

We've worked together a few times. It is not amazing, i wanna know why. I think let's be diplomatic. I'm just in a zone on a wedding day and I'm not the most social person on a wedding day.

Janina Brocklesby 19:03

And I've got it's like what were you gonna say?

Helen Williams 19:05

You're a moody git. I'm loving this. You're focused.

Neil Redfern 19:09

It's focused, it's dedication. I'm in a zone, like in a work zone, And I'm the same with other suppliers, like, say, like you know, you're just hunting for stuff, like you're waiting for most of us, and I'm just gonna say, oh, neil, do you want a drink? or Oh, neil, i have interest And what? I start a conversation? no, no, and it was like oh, and Helen isn't in a nice way, doesn't get into that same clothes. Off to the world state. No, and you'll talk to people. Be all laughing and joking.

Helen Williams 19:37

Yeah, I'm skipping around, just having a lovely time today.

Neil Redfern 19:39

So that's where the jar comes, i think, but you know what.

Janina Brocklesby 19:42

We're actually probably similar on a wedding day, because I'm the hyper one, i'm the one who's silly at times and falls over because I'm clumsy as hell And Jawad is quieter one, and team Jawad yeah.

Neil Redfern 19:55

Yeah, he's, definitely, he's the real, he's getting all these award shots Oh.

Janina Brocklesby 20:03

Both of them. Well, he does actually get the award as well.

Neil Redfern 20:05

I can believe that you're both. I mean, I've seen you both at nine dots. I know you're similar.

Janina Brocklesby 20:10

I thought myself a beauty. He's the calm one. I'm the crazy one. Yeah, yeah, he's the driver. I'm the entertaining.

Neil Redfern 20:18

Oh, but no, it is a great, great system. But I really wanted to mention that because I don't think many people listening will take that approach. when you have second shooters. It's also the trust to delegate as well, isn't it? I mean, it sounds like from day one, when you first worked together, you knew on that wedding how good he was at doing that work, so assuming that he's happy with that as well, obviously is.

Janina Brocklesby 20:37

Yes, and I think the first wedding he's like in shot with me and I've asked him to do the group photos. He found the spot. He showed me in back of camera what he's going to do and it blew my mind. I was like think of that. Wow, that's cool, and I was like you do that and I'll go do what I love doing.

Neil Redfern 20:53

Yeah, after some moments That's the dream situation If you're doing what you enjoy, then it's not even work.

Janina Brocklesby 20:58

Absolutely. Yeah, love that feeling.

Effective Wedding Photography Delegation

Helen Williams 21:01

I just think this is going to blow loads of people's minds. You never even thought of or considered this and it's like well, we're here. We all have different strengths and things that we enjoy on a wedding day. There's no written rules or we are allowed to write our own rules as business owners and creatives, And if you don't enjoy doing something and you know someone does it better, then yeah, delegate it. There's I don't know. When you come into wedding photography, I feel like lots of us think that we have to get certain photos, or I have to get the shoes, I've got to get the shoes, the flowers and need to do the dress, or there's so many preconceived ideas as to what a wedding photographer does and how we should approach shooting a wedding day.

Janina Brocklesby 21:36

But in reality, this is You can make it whatever you want it to be And as long as what you show and what your couples book you for it's consistent with what you're delivering, you're winning. And if you're going to obviously show things you don't like photographing like for me it is details and group photos then I'm going to have a couple who put great importance to it And I don't want that. I want a couple who they will still get those. But I'm not going to spend my extra time on a day. If I've got choice between do the details or capture epic moments, the details are left out. Sorry, but that's reality of it.

Neil Redfern 22:13

No, i'm the same. I'm exactly the same. I'll take a handful of detail shots, but I'm not going to say I put loads of effort into them. It's just more like, well, there they are, and I don't ever show them publicly because I don't want to be booked for them.

Janina Brocklesby 22:23

Exactly like you say On my pre pre wedding questionnaire and on the final zoom, I discussed those things with couples. So we both on the same boat and we know what's important. If they say to me those group photos are super important for us, then we know we're going to, we're going to spend more time with this. Or they say, I don't know they, everything is DIY or somebody made something handmade And those details are important. Then again, I know they are important, but I think it's a lot to do with communication and what you're showing is consistent to what you're delivering.

Neil Redfern 22:53

Oh, totally. I imagine the only if everybody listening the only tricky part about wanting to replicate what you're doing, yenina, is finding someone who you can almost like trust to shoot a number of weddings with you, because you must have developed like a trust over time and you know what works for you. The difficulty if you've not got a consistent second shooter in terms of when their availability is. he's been able to. one week you're shooting that way, the other the next you're not, and that will be the difficult thing. It's great that you've always shoot together. now, is there any weddings that you do shoot on your own?

Janina Brocklesby 23:21

There was few. There was some kind of either because one of us felt poorly or when the covid, the couple, rebooked weddings and they ended up booked. I'm thinking today, yeah, it was more, i think, when we're both fallen ill And that kind of actually happened recently. So, yeah, and then it's obviously a bit of like oh, this is going to be different, but we try to both in that situation to make sure that again, the second shooter, whoever it's, the main for the day, it's got a strong person, somebody who's worthy?

Janina Brocklesby 23:55

somebody who has established business not starting out And the thing is as well. As much as it sounds horrible, i don't want the portfolio of builders in a way that I don't want people to go and chase what they need on a wedding day, yeah, but equally, because I know then that's not for my couple, that's for them. But equally, if somebody can shoot with me, they've got absolutely free will hand. What they want to do with images, They are allowed to use them, but sometimes I'll say that to them after. So I don't have that situation on a day when they're shooting for themselves on a wedding day.

Neil Redfern 24:23

Yeah, that's a good point, because you hear so many horror stories about second shooters. Maybe they after the wedding day they'll actually directly approach the couple and things like that. So you have to have that element of respect. So would I imagine you would never have somebody second shoot for you You don't know, for example, No, I probably wouldn't.

Neil Redfern 24:40

Yeah, it ties into having a good network of photographers who are around you as well, because you're really well tied into the industry, aren't you? I know that you're very active in the nine dots community, for example, so you'll get to know a lot of people. And well, helen and I all three of us, i'm sure would really always recommend that you try and do that. If you're not in a network, already, get to know the photographer. So if you are ill, as you mentioned, you need to just experience something like this recently. Then you can call on someone. That's really important.

Janina Brocklesby 25:08

Absolutely. I think if you don't have friends in the industry, who's going to cover your wedding Do you're going to face not only giving money back to the couple but actually letting couple down on the wedding day. Just would never want to be in the situation where I have to ring the couple and say sorry and you left through your own devices. You have to find your own photographer.

Neil Redfern 25:30

That is the nightmare scenario. Thankfully, i don't think I've ever been in that situation, but I'd like to think that there'd be people I'd be able to ask if that did happen, have you ever had that, helen?

Helen Williams 25:39

Once Was that your horsefly bites. That was my horsefly bites And Chris, who was on the podcast a few weeks ago, he covered it for me. Yes, he was very, very lucky. He was going on holiday in the UK and he even pushed back his holiday date and went a day later to cover that wedding for me, because I know Well done Chris. Yeah, he's all right. I like to take the mick out of him.

Neil Redfern 26:00

But you know, he's actually nicer.

Helen Williams 26:01

Say something nice.

Neil Redfern 26:02

Yeah, about Chris Helen squirmed. We're asking to do this.

Helen Williams 26:05

I'm wriggling my seat Because we know that Chris will listen.

Neil Redfern 26:08

Chris is there now at home. He's listening to the podcast. He's playing with his Lego, with his 360 headset on. What are you going to say to him?

Helen Williams 26:17

Chris is always there when I need him. He's a very good friend. At any time I've had any issues or any problems, he is always there. He is a dependable, loyal friend. So thank you, chris, and thank you for covering the wedding when the horse fly bit my leg and it bloomed and I couldn't bend it. So, yeah, i'm going on holiday a day late. Thank you very much.

Neil Redfern 26:38

Sorry, i just wanted to say that again Because I know that it really embarrasses Helen. that's all.

Janina Brocklesby 26:42

We all need Chris and friend like that in a life where we know in industry where we know it's going to cover our backside if something happens.

Neil Redfern 26:51

The other great thing I'm sure about having like a partner, as it were, who you work with all the time is when you're having inquiry meetings. It must be really easy to sell you to, especially with your own defined roles. Couples must love hearing that You know I'm going to be doing this, jawa's going to be doing that, and these are our strengths. We're playing to our strengths. That's a great thing to be able to say to couples.

Janina Brocklesby 27:11

Yeah, and we use probably that a lot as our selling point as well, that we're not living together, we're not a couple. So if one of us does fail ill, then you still got the reportage studio's experience. It's all stays at your house, because at least one of us is going to be there, because hopefully there's never going to be a situation where we both can't make it. I can't imagine that.

Helen Williams 27:30

So I'd like to, if we can, because I just find this so interesting and I know nothing about it. can I loop back to sort of rangefinder, of course, because I think for a lot of people, you know, like I said, so many people would love to have that accolade, sort of. how do you even go about sort of starting that process?

Navigating Impostor Syndrome in Wedding Photography

Janina Brocklesby 27:48

So, first thing, obviously following Rangefinder on Instagram, facebook, and you can submit photo of the week or photo of the day photos to Rangefinder. Oh, I didn't even know this, which, if you go to the website there is photo of the week and I think on the bottom of the website there is a link or email address to the editor and you literally just send, i would say, no more than five images and describe why you like them, why you would like them to be featured. Don't make it an essay, i guess, because I can imagine they're getting loads of these, yeah, and then see what happens. And I think that's where the first feature came. And then I was nominated last year as well. We didn't get it, and again this year I've couple of times entered photo of the day and they all got featured. Amazing.

Janina Brocklesby 28:34

And then somebody needs to. What's it called?

Neil Redfern 28:37

Like a reference. is that right?

Janina Brocklesby 28:39

Yes, Somebody needs to recommend you to S possibility for rising star And I think there are some rules. that has to be previous rising star. Yeah, there are few rules. Who is that person? who's recommended you? So that can be probably, i guess, tricky part. Again, if you've got strong community around you and people know that you're a good photographer, then they may be like do you know what? I really want to put that person out there, see what they can get.

Helen Williams 29:06

That's really interesting, yeah, really interesting. So remember we were talking about sort of WPPI or lots of our ambassadors, how they were there last year and you were like my work's at WPPI, you know, it's like that's incredible, how amazing.

Janina Brocklesby 29:20

Yeah, that was strange feeling because I saw it on Instagram on the stories that the images were there displayed And I was like, oh my gosh, that is mental. the our images are across the pond.

Helen Williams 29:31

Yeah, especially growing up here in the UK. Obviously, you didn't grow up here in the UK but, yeah, being based in the UK. I think as a whole we don't really know too much about WPPI, Or I don't know many people from the UK who go, And when we start a flash masters, all of our ambassadors are like WPPI is where is that?

Neil Redfern 29:48

Yeah, we know we need to go, you have to go.

Helen Williams 29:51

So you know, it's something I've been looking into a lot as well.

Neil Redfern 29:53

A lot to go next year. Let's all go to Vegas. Yeah, awesome Vegas. Very few, you two together in Vegas.

Intro 30:00

Oh, good Lord, You sure you want to go to New.

Neil Redfern 30:02

York. No, I've gone now. I've changed my mind immediately.

Janina Brocklesby 30:04

If we take Javad, you two can just be chilled and we're going to go wild.

Helen Williams 30:10

I think my flash masters would be bankrupt. See back when I was drinking our flash masters account in Vegas. I would be terrible.

Neil Redfern 30:17

Yeah, i think you. Yonina Moira. Oh, dangerous, it would be dangerous, it would be brilliant.

Janina Brocklesby 30:23

Sorry, it's going to happen in Leeds this year as well.

Helen Williams 30:25

Yes, oh, yes, it can. Yes, but yeah, sorry I take so many different tangents, but yeah, i think to have your works that have displayed at WPPI must have been a real career highlight.

Janina Brocklesby 30:36

Yes, it was very weird experience, very humbling, and it kind of makes you think, oh, this is real. Yeah, it's a strange feeling.

Helen Williams 30:43

Yeah, to see, like I said, when you walk in and just knowing how nervous you were to record the podcast and literally as I read out all those accolades, you were shrinking and getting smaller and smaller in your chair.

Neil Redfern 30:54

So it's you, though. It's the only positive syndrome thing again, isn't it? It's such a shame when you see this, like like, looking at you both, two ridiculously talented photographers who almost just want to put your own work down.

Helen Williams 31:05

Yeah, I think we're very similar.

Janina Brocklesby 31:08

It's hard, though, isn't it? Everything, obviously, everything is in the public eye. The second you're posted And I don't know about you, helen, but if I see my image, i'm like, oh, i'm going to post it, and then I'll start to question it, why shouldn't I? And it's so silly. And like, oh, the photographer is going to say what are they going to think? And then, over there, your photographers are no, your clients, and, frankly, we really shouldn't get what they think.

Neil Redfern 31:31

Yeah.

Janina Brocklesby 31:31

Yeah, because we're not that too impressed on the photographers. But we still go through the process of. Will it be liked? Is it going to?

Neil Redfern 31:38

Yeah, it's so easy to see how that happens. Is that what you would think is the main cause of your Impostor Syndrome? then, nina, it's worry about what other photographers think.

Janina Brocklesby 31:47

Is that? and consistency? Like I want to make sure that I show things which represents our brand properly and that. I don't miss self-ing that I don't show something which we don't do.

Neil Redfern 32:01

This is a really good discussion, actually. Because that becomes hard, doesn't it? Because as you sort of niche down and as your work gets so good and you're winning all these accolades, it does feel harder then to post an image that you feel maybe doesn't reach those same heights. You can't do everyone in your shoot can't be stronger than the last one. There will be a wedding where you shoot, where, just for whatever reason, it just doesn't really happen as much. If you want to then post an image from that wedding, that is a challenge.

Janina Brocklesby 32:28

I always think, yeah, i think again the style of my photography. What I found challenging is that not every wedding has those amazing moments.

Neil Redfern 32:36

Yes.

Janina Brocklesby 32:38

And you can't make people, you can't be entertaining on the wedding, you can't create a moment. You're there to capture them. And I had no idea how difficult documentary photography actually is until I go to the wedding, where people are not laughing, people just having very teamed conversations, nobody's smiling or they're turning away. The second you turn up with a camera and that's really difficult.

Neil Redfern 32:59

So what do you do in these situations?

Janina Brocklesby 33:01

then Cry in a corner.

Neil Redfern 33:04

Sound to the workshop. now Compare with me.

Janina Brocklesby 33:08

There might be a title No, it's true though It's so true.

Neil Redfern 33:12

Especially, I was feeling like in the UK we do have a lot of wedding where it feels like until people have had a few drinks, nothing much is happening. So that is difficult. So how do you cope there?

Janina Brocklesby 33:21

Well, i'm trying to show photos with people laughing, drinking, having garden games, having some sort of entertainment on a day. So people will feel this is me, this is my guest, this is my friends, this is my family. So they almost will see themselves in their images and they will come to me and book me because they know they will have all of that on a wedding. Now, obviously, sometimes you can't control your guest. When it doesn't happen, you just have to photograph what's there. You can't change it. You can't go and stamp on people's feet to make them cry or say silly jokes to make them laugh, because it's not about you, it's about what's happening on a day, capturing this and making story out of that. Again, going back to speaking to the couple before the wedding, i go quite deep on questions regarding the family, the connections between people who are important, why they're important.

Janina Brocklesby 34:12

If somebody passed away a bit of story about that, If any of that already creates a story of the wedding day, why they chose in the venue. Why is the date? Because there might be a lot of elements there which, if you don't ask those questions, you're not going to know. The story is already there.

Helen Williams 34:26

You just have to look for it and capture it. It is.

Neil Redfern 34:30

So you're doing all this sort of research, if you like, before the wedding itself. That's really good.

Janina Brocklesby 34:35

I had a lovely wedding last year in Positano in Italy, where it was just a lot of men's it was just four of us doing it And the couple got married on the same date as Rebecca's parents got married third of June, And they took a little wedding album from her parents' elopements, because they also elopped as well years ago, which is lovely to hear that people used to elop years ago.

The Importance of Documentary Photography

Janina Brocklesby 34:58

That is not a new thing And I knew about that. So I knew that they've got the album somewhere. So I saw it like somewhere in a suit. I was like I'm just going to pick it up and take some photos with it. In the background They were telling us how they bought a painting in Positano And we were like, right, where would they buy it? So we found because we're doing little highlights film as well So we found actually the guy who did the painting and he was finishing off and managed to capture a couple of seconds of him doing that. And then when we delivered that to the couple they were like, oh my gosh, he captured so much more than just the wedding. There is a whole story to the whole trip at that point because there was a lot listening and preparation before the wedding.

Neil Redfern 35:38

Yeah, so documentary is not just happening on the day. You're thinking about what you're going to be shooting even before the day, i assume then You know what the story could be. I think that's really really good advice.

Helen Williams 35:50

Like I've never thought or considered that. Obviously I shoot a lot of documentary but I'm someone who puts a lot of focus and I feel like if I haven't got an insane portraits that I've let myself down. But more and more I'm starting to realise what you said earlier just really resonated with like it's not our day, and I think you said something similar to that was that it's not our day. You know, it is what it is.

Helen Williams 36:15

And so often so often that you come back from a wedding or not, hopefully not that often you're like, ah, because it wasn't all singing, all dancing, people doing the eager bombs or lots happening and you just start feeling You weren't there. That's why, as a guest, oh, you start feeling a bit down or because you didn't necessarily get what you wanted. But it's so important to remember during all those times where you feel like, ah, maybe I didn't do so well that wedding or I didn't get as much. At the end of the day, it isn't our day, it is our couples day. Yeah, that's something that I need to remember a little bit more And I think my styles I definitely think my styles changing personally wanting to give more focus to documentary, and I think that's so useful that I do need to think about those stories, because I send out a little questionnaire, but that's more about what timings, what group photos do you want?

Helen Williams 37:06

And I might be in Fed And that's about it, But actually, yeah, there is so much more to know and it can only help your couples, And I think a lot of people are trying to cut down the amount of time they spend before the wedding by sending a questionnaire to go oh well, I don't need to have a call now or I only need to do 10 minutes, But actually we're missing potentially a lot out there.

Janina Brocklesby 37:27

Absolutely That came. Obviously I'm not that clever. I've learned that from someone else in a way and observing people and coming home realizing that I haven't captured certain things because I wasn't aware of it, and that's where kind of the learning process was and I was like, oh, i need to ask more questions, i need to be more nosy, and I make jokes with couples like I'm going to be nosy, i'm going to ask a lot of questions, but that's only to help you be more relaxed on a wedding and create better photos. I say to the couples to ask the guest not to ask me to take specific photos, because I'm not there for that. Like, you all get tapped on the shoulders to get a photo, which is fine, i'm still going to take them and I'm not in a mood to go. No, but couples tell to the guest that my style is documentary, so if I'm there shooting over the shoulder, don't move away from camera, because there is a reason why she does it.

Janina Brocklesby 38:16

Yeah, there's few little things which I mentioned to the couples well before the wedding. So they even prep the guests Like for the group photos. I say to my couples as well, when they do like the final invitations or whatever to tell the guests who are going to be in a group photos. To tell them before So they know they will be there. Just a little. You're going to be required for the group photos. We want you just so you can write something nice about it, so those guests already know they're going to be in group photos. So they're much easier to organise.

Neil Redfern 38:44

Yeah, that's good. This is really good. You maybe think you said that you shot alone with just four people. How?

Janina Brocklesby 38:50

So it was four of us. Wow, so we were witnesses as well. We stayed friends ever since, oh that's lovely.

Neil Redfern 38:57

I mean that will sound like a dream to photograph. But I'm thinking of it in terms of just being like loads and loads of cool portraits. But I'm assuming if you're not taking that approach, it can't be easy to shoot that in a documentary fashion with just two people.

Janina Brocklesby 39:10

Yeah, that's. that's. I can imagine, like obviously not doing that many portraits. We still went for a portrait session. We had a right laugh, yeah And that, but that wasn't a majority of the gallery.

Neil Redfern 39:23

They still got ready.

Janina Brocklesby 39:25

It was very much documentary.

Neil Redfern 39:27

Yes, Wow, I love that approach. I love the idea of researching couples more beforehand. I think that's a great thing. How many weddings a year do you tend to shoot?

Janina Brocklesby 39:34

Yelena, the two of you Well, last couple of years been mentor, obviously with postponements and stuff, so it was like 50 or 70.

Neil Redfern 39:42

Wow, because that's a lot of like mental headspace you're using.

Janina Brocklesby 39:46

Well, some of that was a lot of things as well which I shot myself in Scotland. I'm like part of recommended supplier list there which I go for a couple of weeks at a time, But together I think we don't want to do any more than 30. Purely because what you said, we put a lot of energy to it.

Neil Redfern 40:01

Yes.

Janina Brocklesby 40:02

To each wedding. and when I say we committed to each wedding, we are Yeah, we don't like shooting two days in a row. It's only if there is a must. in a way, there was a postponement.

Neil Redfern 40:12

Yes.

Understanding Couple Relationships Through Photography

Janina Brocklesby 40:12

Voluntarily. we're not going to take two days in a row because we know how much energy is going to take of us and we don't really shoot that much where we both live, because That's the other thing I was going to.

Neil Redfern 40:20

I already know from before the podcast that you don't tend to shoot anything locally, do you?

Janina Brocklesby 40:25

No, you're always on the road. No, I don't know why I'm not marketing much for where I live.

Neil Redfern 40:30

I think Why don't you want to shoot one in Blackpool?

Janina Brocklesby 40:33

Have you been to Blackpool?

Neil Redfern 40:34

I know the joke is saying I always think it will be so cool to shoot a wedding in Blackpool with everything that's going on. For those that aren't aware, blackpool is a holiday town in the UK that used to be really vibrant. I was saying that in its heyday the 50s, 60s, 70s. I used to go there a lot as a kid in the 80s. I was very, very young, very, very young then.

Helen Williams 40:54

obviously You still love Blackpool, Oh I do I do.

Neil Redfern 40:57

I was talking about my age. It's now a little bit. It's reputation now is more for Henan Stagdoo's, a little bit more now. So it's not quite what it used to be, but I still think. Oh for documentary, it must be cool. But I can imagine the sort of weddings you get in Blackpool. Maybe wouldn't be your ideal.

Janina Brocklesby 41:12

Exactly, i was going to say that the couples who get in probably A lot of couples who get married in Blackpool probably wouldn't choose me as a photographer.

Helen Williams 41:20

Yeah, You put that so well.

Neil Redfern 41:23

She did, i thought you were going to dig yourself a hole here.

Helen Williams 41:27

The other side there just makes a difference.

Neil Redfern 41:29

I was trying.

Janina Brocklesby 41:30

Put your trap down, waiting for failure.

Helen Williams 41:35

You handle that really well.

Neil Redfern 41:36

You also do a lot of shoot-alot was in Scotland as well.

Janina Brocklesby 41:39

Yes, I do. I've got a lovely little place where I'm like on the supplier list. It's a lovely venue and they do a lot of allotments and I can't tell you how many allotments I shot there. It probably will be in hundreds. Wow. And again, documentary approach to that it's very different, I guess. And that's going back to Rangefinder, where it kind of bit me or bit the venue on the ass because the couple don't know what photographer they're going to get. It's kind of potluck to them because they get all inclusive package.

Neil Redfern 42:09

And it's literally again, just the couple. Yes, most of the time it's just the couple.

Janina Brocklesby 42:14

Sometimes, the dog, the kids or couple. But, it's not going to be. There's no more than 12 people.

Neil Redfern 42:18

Right.

Janina Brocklesby 42:18

Which I think I've only had like 12 people once.

Janina Brocklesby 42:20

And the other is two, four max. And yet it was this more mature couple who weren't happy with the images I delivered And I was really upset, thinking not even about me, what I've done on a day, because I've sent, obviously, the gallery to a few trusting photographers to look through it to find faults, to tell me what I could improve, what can I go wrong with or whatever I've done. If they basically got a right to be upset. In a way, i was upset for the couple that they didn't get what they wanted from photography because they got documentary photographer where they wanted very old-fashioned photos. Yes, like they didn't get. Oh, one of the comments was there was a lot of photos of the feet. They had two dogs dressed in something wedding-y which obviously were on the level of the feet And for me there is a reason why they brought those two dogs to the wedding.

Janina Brocklesby 43:09

Plus the converse they were wearing. They had dates on it, so they will be, because that's obviously a little detail. So that was a reason And it was all part of a story which I felt like was a beautiful story from the wedding day. Anyway, i got an email from the venue saying that couple is upset, blah, blah, blah. On the same day, I got rangefinder winning, so we've upset of your style doesn't fit people. I got actually your style does fit, but certain people.

Neil Redfern 43:37

Oh, that was good timing. In a way, it was very good timing. It was reassurance. Negative feedback is so hard, of course.

Janina Brocklesby 43:42

The style does find its own path, just not for everyone.

Neil Redfern 43:46

Of course, and it's almost impossible. When you're shooting like 40, 50 weddings a year, as you say, you and then the load was on top Like you can't always find your couple, there's going to be a few that slip through the net, aren't they? And that's inevitable. It's more on the couple, i guess.

Janina Brocklesby 44:01

Yeah, and again what we said before showing what you wanting to shoot.

Neil Redfern 44:05

Of course.

Janina Brocklesby 44:06

Not trying to please. I mean, I've got loads of lovely portraits which I do take on a day, because obviously those gonna be those photos which people most likely will print. That's where you're going to make extra money, right, And the same with group photos.

Janina Brocklesby 44:19

Family might want to you know, but you're not going to see me posting group photo unless it's the minute after or before. You need to show what you want to shoot and then those couple will find you and love what you do. And, yes, they, they, i will. On every call with a couple I will get asked do you take portrait, do you take group photos? And then I go on a tangent Yes, i do. And this is why and I actually put great importance on the group photos, because then again there is I had one wedding where the couple did not even want the photos of the parents And I just said let's just do two photos just with parents, because they deserve it. Frankly, Yeah.

Janina Brocklesby 44:55

And they were like Oh actually, yeah, good point, We do want those two photos, And that was that. So I put like say those photos are important, you do want them Because that's the time when you're all dressed, smart, you're all together, just let's go. There's just this couple, if anything, but it's what you show. Yeah, definitely.

Helen Williams 45:12

I've just, yeah, i've kind of zoned out. if I'm honest, whilst you were talking, still going back to just in my head, do I sound?

Janina Brocklesby 45:18

like I know something Definitely Yes, you do.

Helen Williams 45:21

Honestly like just light bulb, that light bulb moment of asking all of those extra questions. it doesn't really take that much time but it can change absolutely everything or understanding if a certain person has been ill or if it's a particular connection, and I don't ask that. My question is literally like what time are you getting ready? What's the what time's the ceremony? All of the basic, basic stuff. But I don't delve at all into relationships in that question.

Neil Redfern 45:51

I've taken that away from this as well. I have to do that.

Janina Brocklesby 45:54

So, for example, in I think it's second of July, i've got wedding of the bride who recently had hip operation And I know the first dance going to be first. I'm just going to be dancing, so I know that's going to be super important for them. And for her that she is able to move again, to walk normally, stuff like that.

Neil Redfern 46:11

Yeah, that is a huge lesson And I need to do far more as well on my side as well, because I don't know these things, i might find them out on the day. But the other thing I was thinking is, when you do ask these questions and you do delve a little bit deeper, i can only going to strengthen your relationship as well with the couple before the day by getting couples to share things that could be quite I don't know, not say difficult, but you know, quite emotional for them. That's going to draw them towards you And that was that was really helpful, because you're someone obviously shooting documentary we all know those that do that. You need to feel that like level of acceptance on the wedding day to order to get close, don't you? So the more you can do that beforehand, the better.

Janina Brocklesby 46:49

Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's that's a massive thing when it comes to documentary, especially if you, if you should close, if you should done 35, 25, you are going to be in people's faces and they only going to allow you in there if they feel comfortable with you Yeah, exactly, and again here. This why to have a zoom call with a couple is I think it's much more important than just have a call or just have an email exchange.

Janina Brocklesby 47:09

So, also guests. If the guests see the bride and groom are super comfortable with you, they naturally going to be more comfortable with you, so you get that access automatically. A couple of weeks ago I think was one of a bride to message me screenshot me message. One of our guests asked who were those friends who photographed your wedding.

Neil Redfern 47:29

That's a really nice compliment.

Janina Brocklesby 47:30

Because and I was like exactly thinking that's amazing, because that's the relationship I want to be like seen on a wedding day, yeah, and those they all guest felt like friends on a day. They all allowed me to go quite close and take the crazy photos and nobody was too shy from the camera. I think because of the kind of relationship I already had with a couple.

Neil Redfern 47:49

Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic And I totally get that as well, because if you have got a couple who are that little bit standoffish, you certainly don't think you can get close to the guest because they've not been given, you, not been allowed the access. Such a great takeaway, really good.

Helen Williams 48:03

I've got it. Yeah, i just want to start making notes already. I need my final question here, or even my first question here. It has to completely change. And I do think I've finished a wedding And we didn't really we haven't done like a catching up at the start of the podcast, but I did a wedding on Saturday and I literally had probably five minutes maximum all day on portraits, just because, well, weather didn't allow it, in circumstances didn't allow for it, and I panicked so much and it was getting towards sort of dark time and it was still raining and the weather was still bad.

Helen Williams 48:34

And I had to say to the bride like I'm having a little bit of a freak out right now because I want to ensure that I am obviously giving you everything that you want, and I would usually have had a lot more time doing portraits today. So, and I even offered like, if we want to get dressed up again later in the week when the weather's better, we can go out, or. But I was panicking so much that I didn't have a lot of portraits of them and it turned out the bride wasn't bothered at all, but it consumed me so much and worrying so much because the weather was really, really bad, but at the same time we could be using that questionnaire to almost. I'm going off on a randexy and Neil's like no, where is this going?

Helen Williams 49:10

no, no but maybe in this questionnaire I kind of assume the couples book me, obviously because they love my work and I do show a lot of portraits. But I am noticing more, a little bit more now, that not all of my couples are that bothered or that they don't need a lot of portraits. So maybe I could even be asking in that sort of questionnaire to almost rank the importance of the day. What are the key things? what's the most important? thing to you because I don't ask that.

Helen Williams 49:35

I literally just assume they love my work. Give me the details so I know the facts of where I need to be and when. But really those, those questions help us? surely they would. I would feel better on a day if I know then. Oh well, the bride only put portraits down was like third important or something don't panic, you've got all these gorgeous moments, or?

Neil Redfern 49:52

yeah, i also just think that the build relationships thing we just spoke about is is really key as well, which that will help to do oh, you've got me thinking, my brain is wearing Janina yeah, yeah, we're learning lots here.

Neil Redfern 50:04

I was looking there wasn't, because I was thinking where are you going? I was thinking you said you came back and you said, oh, it was really tough. I've not, i've not got any portraits. I'm really worried. I've offered to an extra shoot for them in the week if the weather improves. And then you, two hours later you said I've got this one and it was this amazing shot of them in the rain. And I've got this one, this beautiful window lit portrait.

Helen Williams 50:25

I was like what are you talking about? but I did literally total five minutes the whole day maximum I get.

Neil Redfern 50:32

We both have the same thing, don't we, where we worry excessively too much about how important the portraits are when the reality is we could have shot a wedding really well, documentary wise, but if we don't have that two or three portraits, they're all. They're the ones that they want to see. Yeah, we don't think we've done a good job and. Janina's showing up it's.

Helen Williams 50:51

It's not that that isn't the case no, i think everything that we've from you, having said, you know, when the second shoot first of all started taking your group portraits, just running the business how you want to, or yeah, there's just so many rules or things I think I need to do and I don't. Oh, i'm having so many like. Yeah, this is like a day of revelations for me.

Neil Redfern 51:11

I wasn't expecting it, thank you what I would love to do, janina, if it's okay, is ask you maybe to talk about the story behind one of your favorite photographs, and what we'll do is, when this podcast goes live, we'll share that photograph on the flashmasses Instagram page. So are there any images, janina? or, and what is there a favorite image of yours that you think? oh yeah, i'd like to tell us about that backstory so that we can then see that photograph on online yeah, i don't want to say I've got my favorite image, but I do have my favorite yeah, yeah, you don't what you secretly do, we all do we all do and it's an image from last year which won a lot of awards.

Janina Brocklesby 51:49

It's the bride and groom. How they found I think they found me actually for referral, and I gone with a bride on a course to where you're really really well, we're chatting for ages. They've got dogs, rescue dogs, kids, they've got a little boy and yeah, we were matching each other like we thought we're gonna stay friends.

Janina Brocklesby 52:07

Oh, that's so nice and the wedding was in, i think, july last year and I knew that she's very more, very pro nature, very pro children and she's a teacher and I again talking about the access to the couple and I knew that I'm allowed to pretty much go to bathroom with her because I say I'm gonna follow you everywhere.

Janina Brocklesby 52:28

That includes bathroom and we get a laugh, but that does give me the green light. Wow, and she got ready, everybody got ready and her little boy needed feeding. She was sitting on a toilet, not using a toilet, but sitting on a toilet in her dress. It was really warm and she was breastfeeding her little boy and her mom came to give her some water, because it was hot day, to make sure obviously she's hydrated as well. And obviously, if I didn't have that relationship with her, i don't know if she would allow me to literally go in a bathroom while she's feeding her baby. And yeah, and I was snapping away and that's my favorite photo, which I love there is three generations in a photos. There is a lot of love and caring of photos, obviously mom feeding the mom and a breastfeeding situation, which it's so important to talk about as well.

Neil Redfern 53:18

Oh, i love that. And what comes across is there is no way that most photographers would have even been able to take that photograph because they wouldn't have had the access. And that again ties into what we've been talking about, doesn't it that you've created that access by all the work you've done beforehand?

Helen Williams 53:31

Yeah, i remember seeing that image and yeah, it's very moving. And I think you were just saying about the what would be like the grandma giving the drink to her daughter who's them feeding her grandchild. It's just that sort of that circle of just love and care and motherhood and it was beautiful. I get I'm almost getting teary describing it. It's beautiful. Yeah, i'm looking at now.

Neil Redfern 53:51

It is absolutely stunning. So, as you, nina, said, you've got the bride sat on on the on the toilet breastfeeding her little boy and her mum, so the little boy's grandmother is giving the bride a drink. So, yeah, it's beautiful and totally in the moment as well. Like there is no way that you could set that up and it would look as authentic as that it's. It just feels so real.

Janina Brocklesby 54:13

Yeah, i love that image because obviously she loves the colour, like they've just booked the album, which is colourful album cover, not typical one. So obviously there's this yellow converse she's got next to it. It's all like that image. I know that for the couple it's the whole story of of of them really as a family as well, even though he's not included in it. And as you can see from the image, the light is horrible, the composition is not ideal, but it was all about the moment.

Composition and Moment in Photography

Neil Redfern 54:39

Oh, i love it. I don't think the other things are bad at all. I love interesting. We're going off in real tangents here when we talk about light moment composition. Is there one that? is there an approach that you have to that? are you looking for any particular thing first? Probably composition.

Janina Brocklesby 54:53

Ah, okay, that would be my first thing, composition. I mean, i love hash light and playing with the light where I can and there is a time for it is great. But composition will be probably my first thing. And then moment, either falling into it which that happens thank you, god of photography or, if there is a moment, i'm trying to be there listening what's happening and not just the composition in frame, shooting through the moment. But yeah, it'll be composition.

Neil Redfern 55:18

That's really interesting, i think, the temptation of most people. You think they're going to go for moments, just go for the moment, without thinking about composition as much. But yeah, looking through your images now, you can see that that is, that is your approach. So the composition is always like you know, there's a lot of symmetry in what you're doing as well and and the the photos. People would say but what if the moment doesn't happen where you want it to happen?

Janina Brocklesby 55:41

Move on to next. Yeah, it's good, i had wedding on Saturday. I was second shooting, so I had a lovely freedom to do whatever I want and I was like, oh, this is great, i'm going to stand here this. If this comes together, it will be amazing. And and, yes, i've got something, but it's not what I've imagined. And, yeah, it didn't work out as well as I was hoping for.

Neil Redfern 56:00

I can imagine you know your heart beating thinking if it does if it comes together, yeah and you won't ever. I need to be a bit of loaded questions. I know the answer you won't ever.

Janina Brocklesby 56:09

Just try and make things happen, nope although I was very much thinking could you just go back there? but no, no, not in that kind of situation where obviously like when you don't know when dad is coming to the room. You know, i might say to right if she can stand there, purely so I can get them both in an image, or making sure that I'm there in a room to make sure they don't do it while I'm not there, although with two of us.

Janina Brocklesby 56:33

Most likely I will be in a room, but I wouldn't recreate moment ever and if I miss it, that's on me.

Neil Redfern 56:40

Yeah, i think that's a bit different though, because, like, that's a very prescribed moment, isn't it? Dad's seeing Dosh in a dress for the first time. It's like that's almost like this is part of the day, whereas a lot of what your work is, you can't envisage what your favorite shots will be, because you don't know what they're gonna. You know it's a moment it's gonna could happen anytime, okay. So last question, actually and I've got two questions you're moving up line One is just photographers listening will want to know. We mentioned access. You're a storyteller. What equipment are you using? I know it's a bit of a boring question, but what? what's your go-to?

Janina Brocklesby 57:08

lenses 25, 85 or 2550.

Neil Redfern 57:13

Ah, so not 35, you've gone a bit wider.

Janina Brocklesby 57:15

No, i've got wider.

Neil Redfern 57:16

yes, Is that because you want to get closer?

Janina Brocklesby 57:18

Yes, and sometimes I feel like it's not close enough and I think, because so many people use 35, it looks slightly different using 2560 as well, nice, because it's not such a popular.

Helen Williams 57:32

Actually 25 too, as well by 35, was sat in my bag and it's not gone on my camera in probably year and a half.

Neil Redfern 57:37

Yeah, you've got the fattest, haven't you?

Janina Brocklesby 57:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fattest 25mm And you've always got options to crop, yeah, like if you you know if something is not straight and and then if you start cropping at 35 and it's not gonna, it's gonna ruin the photo, then I know I've got that room to crop if I have to.

Neil Redfern 57:53

Yeah, that's brilliant. and then my last question and it's going back, i was actually earlier, then I completely forgot You mentioned you need you do obviously do a lot of judging for various awards and that you've picked up some tips from actually the judging process which affects the images that you choose when you're entering awards. So what would that advice be for photographers when they're trying to decide what images they should put forward for awards? What, what sort of things would you say to them? Maybe some dos and don'ts about when they're selecting their own images? I?

Janina Brocklesby 58:19

think main thing would be to look what's popular and not to enter that unless it's really really outstanding, just like we always. I think there's a lot of people said about confetti, you know, unless it's really amazing. confetti photos we've all seen confetti photos. Yeah, there is the same with I don't know people in the air. Gosh, those are, there's a lot of people in the air.

Neil Redfern 58:45

Oh, we're talking about.

Janina Brocklesby 58:45

Unless it's really amazing flying person. Yeah. If Superman hat on, it's been done.

Janina Brocklesby 58:52

This is really cool And I think that's to to make sure that picture is different, image is different And that might be very different. But I think the whole idea is to get the judge to stop on your image, rather than, if you've got 20,000 images to go for as a judge, you literally go next. It's like culling process nearly, and then when you stop on the image, you go right, is it? is the light? We've got something, got my attention. So are the corners clean? Is it all? is it all working together? And that point, that's a stopper. But I think to stop that attention it needs to be slightly different in what's already out there.

Neil Redfern 59:24

That's brilliant. I love what you said there about are the corners clean as well? That's something that's so people, when we've seen critique sessions as well, like, don't think of, like how important the crop is and not having those distracting elements around the edge.

Helen Williams 59:37

Yeah, i would say every time we get the flash, masses awards in the biggest thing as we go through, and obviously we don't judge, we like to play judge but one of the biggest changes we want to make to almost every single entry is the crop, and I think it's something that's so overlooked. At the same time, i particularly when you're introducing flash and things like that people are thinking more about the technicals and the lights and things, Yeah, to get wrapped up in the technicals.

Helen Williams 59:57

Yeah so wrapped up in the technical, and then they just completely forget the crop. So yeah, which is such a basic thing, isn't it?

Janina Brocklesby 1:00:03

It really, really is A crop can make all the difference. Yeah, all the difference. There was actually one of a friends who asked me a bit of opinion on the awards and he sent me a couple of photos and I've cropped one and it made massive difference And he was quite surprised himself. I was like, wow, i just wouldn't think about it.

Neil Redfern 1:00:20

Yeah, and when you see the before and afters it's like how do? I not see that Brilliant advice. This has been incredible.

Helen Williams 1:00:27

It really has. And yeah, I've said off the side, like I've zoned out, which is really bad to say.

Janina Brocklesby 1:00:34

It is bad to say On quite a few different occasions. You mean you fall in the sleep.

Helen Williams 1:00:38

No, but no, it's not. It's cause my brain is worrying. There's been so many light bulb moments for me today. That's just like what are you doing, helen?

Janina Brocklesby 1:00:48

I'm like yeah anyway, so you should do the workshop then.

Neil Redfern 1:00:51

Without a doubt, you should do the workshop. Remember, please follow her and Joward on Instagram at Reportage Studios and just say when is the workshop happening.

Helen Williams 1:01:03

Yeah, and obviously I know you need it really well. We're good friends with great drinking buddies. There's lots of things that I thought that I knew, but every time I speak to you I always get something new. And today, that approach to how much you get to know your couples beforehand And I thought I did quite well And I will zoom my couples and I think I know them quite well, but actually well, i don't, or I don't know the important things with relations to weddings and family And all those things are so, so key in terms of myself becoming more of a rounded photographer as well, cause, yeah, i think lots of people who might be members of Flashmasters will be quite similar in terms of putting so much focus on those portraits and creating something epic.

Helen Williams 1:01:47

And it is that remembering, like you said earlier, these wedding days. They're not our days. We are there also to tell the story for our couples And I think we can really get wrapped up in chasing awards or trying to create epic with lights and using Flash, but we still need to remember as well that this is a day filled with moments and love and connections And the more we can do, such as speaking to our couples about that and giving focus to that, we'll only strengthen our work and what our clients receive too. So, yeah, you've properly given so many light bulb moments to me today. Thank you very much.

Helen Williams 1:02:21

I'm now going to have to go away redo all of my questionnaires. You've given a huge food for thought for me And I hope that that's going to be the same for a lot of our listeners as well, because generally, we appeal to people who use Flash, but there's so much that we can learn from speaking more to people who you know you can use Flash and we've talked about that. Oh, we haven't talked about that, but you can use Flash. You don't very much, but we've got a lot to learn from people who put that focus on the moments and the connections and the storytelling, because it's a bit easy to get wrapped up in creating the epic. Thank you, lili. I know I'm waffling now, but you have given me so much food for thought. So, yeah, thank you so much.

Neil Redfern 1:03:01

No, I would just echo exactly what Helen has just said. You've also opened my eyes to what I'm doing before a wedding, because I'm wanting the access and I get frustrated when I don't feel that I've got it. but am I doing enough to get that access before the day? No, clearly I'm not. So I've certainly learned that as well. So thank you very much for that And I'm sure everybody listening will feel exactly the same. It's been a pleasure having you on. Thank you so much again. Thank you very much for having me.

Helen Williams 1:03:25

Oh, thank you, So yeah huge thank you to janina

Neil Redfern 1:03:29

Please do go and follow her and Jouad on Instagram, again at Reportage Studios, and if you'd like to join us in the Flash Masters community, you can do so at flashmasters. co And why not? We would love to have you. So thank you so much, Janina. Thank you to everybody for listening and we will see you in the next one.

Helen Williams 1:03:46

And don't forget to keep flashing, but also look for moments and remember the way we're capturing the story. Bye.