Flash Masters
Welcome to the Flash Masters Podcast! Flash Masters recognises and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through education, awards and community. Hosted by Helen Williams and Neil Redfern, we talk all things wedding photography - from the equipment we use to the funniest things which have happened to us whilst photographing weddings - and we have a lot of those stories! To join the community, please visit Flashmasters.co
Flash Masters
Helen spoke at NineDots and we were models for Jesse and Moira La Plante & Jason Vinson!
In this episode Helen talks about her experience of talking in front of 100 photographers at the NineDots Gathering in Leeds, where she presented how she uses off camera flash at her weddings to shoot group shots.
Plus! We were models for amazing photographers Jesse and Moira La Plante and Jason Vinson during their wedding photography workshop in the UK. Being on the other side of the camera was an eye-opening experience and in this podcast we talk about the things we learned. It was enlightening!
But the adventure didn't stop there! We braved a storm on a second shoot with Jason Vinson at the top of a very windy moor in North Yorkshire. The challenges we faced, the bravery we encountered, and the sheer exhilaration of the experience will remind you of the lengths we go to for the love of art. Join us, and immerse yourself in our world of creativity, passion, and daring adventure. You're in for a thrilling ride with this episode of Flash Masters!
NineDots Gathering: https://nine-dots.co/gathering/
Jesse and Moira La Plante: https://jlaplante.com/
Jason Vinson: https://vinsonimages.com/
Join us in the Flash Masters community:
Website: https://flashmasters.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/flashmasters/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@flash-masters
Flash Masters is hosted by:
Helen Williams: https://www.instagram.com/helenwilliamsphotography/
Neil Redfern: https://www.instagram.com/neilredfern/
Welcome to the Flash Masters podcast. Flash Masters recognizes and celebrates the best flash photography in the world through education, awards and community. To find out more and to join the Flash Masters community, visit flashmastersco. Here are your hosts, Helen Williams and Neil Redfern.
Neil Redfern:Hi everybody, I hope you're well. Welcome to episode 57 of the Flash Masters podcast, with me, neil Redfern, and me, helen Williams, and it's been a crazy, crazy busy week for us, especially for you, helen. You've done all sorts this week, haven't you? We've both been on the other side of the camera. We'll talk about that in a second for the first time ever. Yeah, we'll talk about our experiences doing that, but also congratulations to you because you did two talks at 9.0. Straight away, how do you feel after doing?
Helen Williams:those Very relieved. Yeah, I was absolutely just high. It was such an incredible buzz. But I will admit that buzz and that high that I had after doing the talks and whilst giving them wasn't quite the same experience in the lead up to it as a first time speaker, there was a lot of nerves. Yeah, that certainly had a very roller coaster ride of emotions.
Neil Redfern:So I think this episode will probably be based around our, and especially your, experience with this year's Nine Dots. So for those that may be listening who aren't aware of Nine Dots, do you want to give a little bit of an intro to the gathering?
Helen Williams:Yes, Well, in terms of the gathering which a lot of people know Nine Dots for they don't like to say it's a conference. They say it's a gathering where lots of photographers from all over the world come together for two days and we basically listen to lots of inspirational speakers, keynotes, there's some live shooting and, most importantly, I've a said there's a good old party.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, 9.0 has been going now since 2015. I went to the first one and it was incredible and actually changed the way that I run my business for a number of reasons, and it's been a bit the staple of the UK wedding photography industry calendar. Does that make sense? I'd say so Since 2015,.
Neil Redfern:They always have this big gathering, as they call it, as Helen says, at the end of the year in November, and it's a huge like celebration, I guess, of wedding photography and a great, incredible party as well, run by our friends Rahul Kona and Andy Gaines, and it's fantastic, isn't it? I had the pleasure of speaking there two years ago, I think, and I loved it. And I was so excited when they invited you to speak this year because I knew that, even though you've been nervous in the lead up to it, because it is nerve wracking, because there's, I think, 100 photographers attend, and those photographers that I always feel are a good level. They don't tend to be newbies oh, it doesn't feel that way. Anyway, they all seem to be proficient, very good, most full time experience wedding photographers across the full gamut of wedding photography as well.
Helen Williams:Yes.
Neil Redfern:So you're not just talking to your tribe, are you? In terms of flash, you're talking to natural light shooters, doc, hardcore documentary shooters, which makes it I mean, it's good, but it also makes it a little bit more nerve wracking. I remember when I was, when I spoke there and I was shooting through tin foil, thinking what are some of the people in this room thinking? But everyone's very respectful of whatever we all do. Everyone respects different styles and everything. I knew it'd be the same for you, but I knew, knowing you, that you'd be nervous. So, yeah, I was so pleased when you asked what? How did you feel when you got that email?
Helen Williams:I don't think this room is a whole lot around this room. I honestly thought it was a joke, I couldn't believe it, but I was going to reply. I remember telling you and I was like, oh my God, like to be fair, this was my dream. And after my first time I went to my first gathering in 2018, I think, or 2019. But after I went there I said to myself I didn't put it out to anyone else, it was like because it just sounds a bit ridiculous. But in my head I was like I want to speak at nine dots, seeing the speakers on the stage the way they always finish.
Helen Williams:Nine dots with the speakers running down the middle giving high fives, like so many different moments during that gathering that are just like highly emotive and inspirational. And after the first time I went I was like I want to do that but never, ever, ever thought that I would get that opportunity. So when I got that email, first of all I thought it was a joke, but I remember going to reply to a hall and I was going to say how much I thought like are you sure you're winding me up?
Neil Redfern:Like who's saying you know what you're going to get, yeah.
Helen Williams:Do you really want this? And I remember you going no, helen. You reply like you own it, like you know yes, I would love to speak there. So I did that and pretended that I was feeling, you know, very confident about my ability to do this. And internally I wasn't feeling quite so confident, but I think I nailed it. But we won't go into too much of that now.
Neil Redfern:No. So we'll talk about the whole of the nine dots week and again it's what to give a big shout out to the gathering as an event. If you haven't been. I also get asked oh you know, would you recommend me going to nine dots? And I always think go at least once, at least to get the vibe. It's completely different to anything that I know of. Anyway, certainly it's different to anything else in the UK.
Neil Redfern:The UK when I first started, you know, back in the olden days, was ruled by very old fashioned or certainly perceived as being old fashioned organisations, you know, full of older people, usually older men, you know, doing critiques about the hardcore fundamentals of photography and it was all very stuffy.
Neil Redfern:Whereas when nine dots came along, they completely changed the game in that sense they were they're at the cool club cool, young, really, you know really energetic, dynamic and just changed the industry much for the better. So I would always recommend that people go, even if it's not for the talks, dare I say, for being honest, it's certainly worth it for the I know they don't like the word networking but the socialising speaking to other photographers you're, being in a room full of like-minded people for a couple of days is amazing, and you'll get so much from it. I think, just as much from the socialising potentially even more, I guess, than you do even from listening to the amazing talks so it's a really good experience. It's very hard to describe to people who haven't been, because it's quite all encompassing, but I would definitely recommend it. If you haven't been and you're on the fence, give it a go, because I'm sure you'll really love it.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it's definitely. I want to put a new diary in an amazing experience.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, definitely so. So our experience is a bit longer actually, because nine dots itself was two days, yes, tuesday and Wednesday. But we, because of our amazing ambassadors, the relationship we built over the past year, our experience was a bit longer, wasn't it? Because we were so excited we finally got a chance to meet in person Jesse and Neurala Plants oh it was amazing, it's amazing. They say that don't meet your heroes. But they couldn't have been nicer could they no Imagine if they were horrible. I was weird and awkward that would have been. Yeah, it could have been really awkward.
Neil Redfern:We should have presented it that they were, but no, they're the nicest people ever they are. What did they ask us to do?
Helen Williams:Yeah, when this request came through my immediate response. I was you're going to need a bleep on this.
Neil Redfern:No, no, no, no, no, no but yeah, they support England in the World Cup.
Helen Williams:But that would also be a big no. Now they asked us to be their models.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, god, they like to make life hard for themselves. We've never done this before, and it was like, oh no, but it's Jesse Moore. Of course, we're never going to say no, but also oh no.
Helen Williams:Let I draw the do so many other things. I was terrified.
Neil Redfern:I will say it's a great experience and one that we should have tried to maybe do beforehand, because you learn an awful lot. Being on the other side of the camera, being in the place of our couples, gives you a whole different insight into the whole process yes, the picture taking and I learned a lot, I personally feel, from from the experience. So, anyway, let's go back. So Jesse and moira had been in the UK for a week or a few days beforehand, anyway, touring Scotland, yeah, drinking whiskey for a week, and then we met them on the Saturday night, which was really lovely. We went out and it was an extra bonus, not just Jesse and Moira, but also Jason Vinson, who was again another of the speakers at Nine Dots, and basically Jesse, moira and Jason were running a workshop on the Sunday before Nine Dots, and that's where they'd asked Helen and I to model. So they very kindly invited us out on the Saturday before just to meet up for a drink, and that was really nice, wasn't it?
Helen Williams:Yeah, it was. It was just crazy because we were walking through that red light district to the to the venue. Yeah, it was certainly interesting. But yeah, it was fantastic to meet people sort of online and we've been chatting since. Obviously, we started flashmasses and before flashmasses, you know, we'd never had any contact with Jesse and Moira at all. No, just followed them from afar. Yeah, so yeah, to meet them in person was absolutely incredible. I kind of miss them.
Neil Redfern:Oh yeah, I will say it's very cheesy, but I do feel that would be really good friends if you actually lived, like you know, Learbar, yeah, 100%.
Helen Williams:Yeah, they were.
Neil Redfern:They were lovely, as was Jason. It was really and I always feel a bit intimidated as well Meeting Americans, because I know I said this to them. Yeah, but when we sat with them, like speaking three Americans, I think I think America's just cool. It's like they sound cool. They sound better than we do, sound like I wish I could be more like that which I do think is intimidating yeah.
Helen Williams:And then Jason arrives at these. You know this really tall guy with a really deep voice and he just sounds extra cool, exactly.
Neil Redfern:Exactly, Jason.
Helen Williams:Vinson's. To be honest, I was quite nervous there.
Neil Redfern:I never thought that being Jason would bond over chess. Oh yeah, that was. Jason is a huge, huge chess fan.
Helen Williams:Yes, Amazing, I was like watch out. Jason Neil was the captain of his school.
Neil Redfern:I was a captain of a sports team. That's all we need to know. I was a captain of a sports team.
Helen Williams:Chess is not a sports team. No, yeah, anyway. So we went out with them and sat down.
Neil Redfern:That was really lovely. You stayed over with them, really really nice. But then Sunday you weren't great in the morning, were you? Oh. I mean I was. I was really nervous as well, not looking forward to it, but I think it was one of those examples where somebody dips the other person sort of just goes into, oh, it'll be all right mode. Yeah, and I think you fair say dipped a little bit.
Helen Williams:I was terrified. Honestly, we were here in Leeds in the UK. It is not hot it's not what hot weather at the moment but I will admit like I was sweating a lot, Like the back of my hair was wet and it wasn't even hot. I was that nervous and I was pretty much crying in the car on the way to the venue because I was yeah, I haven't seen that really before.
Neil Redfern:I was terrified, yeah.
Helen Williams:There's been a lot of times where I've been so far out of my comfort zone over the last week.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, and this is good. Being out of your comfort zone is when you learn. You don't learn from saying safe. So that's just one thing in general, which is that's why this was a good experience, Because neither of us. I think it's fair to say we're looking forward to it. I was definitely looking forward to seeing the three of them work.
Helen Williams:Oh yeah, for the nosey like things. Oh, what's that? That's a great thing.
Neil Redfern:You sort of can do that as the models, but not as much as I would have liked, because I was concentrating on trying to give them that, what they want in terms of posing and everything.
Helen Williams:And looking like.
Neil Redfern:Exactly, exactly. But I was really looking forward to seeing them work and that was fascinating. But I, like you, wasn't looking forward to the other side. So that just a little bit of context.
Neil Redfern:When we arrived, jesse, moira and Jason were holding their workshop in a bar in Leeds and they had hired out like the basement area, so this was a room relatively small. I would say there's probably I don't know 10, 12 people on the workshop in quite a small space, dark wood paneled, with a central like metal staircase going up to the top level but no windows at all, so no natural light, and it was cramped. There was lots of tables and chairs and obviously a lot of bodies in there as well, watching. I remember when we walked in saying to you, what would you do in here? And there was a few things.
Neil Redfern:We thought, well, maybe that, maybe that. And I thought, oh, I'll probably do that. And what I thought was so useful and so interesting to see is that neither Jesse or Moira or Jason did anything that I would have done in a very small space. I thought I'd seen the things that you, the only things you could really do, and they each shot completely differently and that was really amazing to see and it really shows how we are all so individual in our styles and our vision.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it's definitely got us sort of scratching our heads and thinking more about, like, how much there is to learn by putting different photographers in a room and just go shoot what you would shoot, and just to see how all our minds think differently. Yeah it was so, so interesting and I will say, given how terrified, literally crying in the car, profusely sweating, it was not a nice experience. I think it was pretty much a borderline panic attack. They made me feel so comfortable instantly.
Neil Redfern:All three of them were just absolute pleasures to work with, that's the skills of a photographer as well, because one of the things that I think I've taken away, in fact, what would you sort of say that you've learned from the experience you've been on the other side of the camera?
Helen Williams:More than being on the other side. I will say I've learned a little bit more about the delivery or seeing the images.
Neil Redfern:Can I talk about that instead? That's a big one. Yeah, that counts.
Helen Williams:Yeah, because obviously we are photographers, most of us who do flash. We choose it for creative reasons as well as to obviously bring good light to a scene where there isn't good light. But obviously we can get so wrapped up in being extra clever, being extra cool. Oh, chasing the epic and wanting those epic photos. And boy have we got some. And, to be fair, I love the epic photos, but the ones that really really go oh, arra, from someone who's in love, from my perspective, the things that the ones that spoke to me the most were the ones where we were laughing and giggling, and not necessarily the most technically wow images.
Helen Williams:So, yeah, it's interesting, there's a place for both and I appreciate both and I've definitely shared both and I think both kinds will be printed on our wall somewhere.
Neil Redfern:Oh, without a doubt.
Helen Williams:But it was interesting just to see those images back from a couple's point of view and just how emotionally the connection that I felt with the images where we were just having a good laugh, how they spoke to my heart just a little bit more.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I think that's very true and I was very similar. It's like it doesn't matter what the photograph looks like. You're looking at those few pixels contain faces, basically, and then maybe making your decision about whether you like that photograph on one percent of the photograph rather than the whole lot. But then if you like, that one percent and then the other half is like incredible. It all just comes together, but you need to get that moment, is what you say.
Helen Williams:Yeah, 100 percent. And I think we talk about that with flashmasters awards that we set up when we tried to shoot the epic, and sometimes those who don't reach getting that award is often because that moment is missing. But I think being on the other side of the camera, those were the moments were like really obvious and present, with the ones that really punched me and like, oh, I like that one.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I agree. I think for me, what I realized was I felt I needed a lot of not reassurance as such, but communication. When posing, like when we're in that position with having our photograph taken, I wanted to know from everyone, like, is this all right, is this OK? And oftentimes I'm sure it actually was, but I like to be told I didn't realize this beforehand Like, oh no, this is really good. And then when the photographer takes a picture, I'm really hoping I then hear someone say, oh, that's really good. Or could they feel it's like there we go. And then it was cited oh no, and so it's like it's the importance.
Neil Redfern:I think what I've taken away is of the constant reassurance to our couples or whoever you're shooting of oh she's amazing, oh wow, oh, wait till you see this, and it just builds you up a little bit, yeah. So, yeah, that's what I took, and thankfully, I mean, we were very, very lucky we were being photographed here by three of the best photographers in the world.
Helen Williams:So very lucky.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, and the photographs are insanely good. We're extremely, extremely lucky, and we can't thank Jesse Murr and Jason enough, because the images that they produce are stunning in every way and finally, we can have pictures upon our walls.
Helen Williams:Yes, they're not just random selfies that we've taken.
Neil Redfern:We've now got to be.
Helen Williams:not that couple, it's chases when it comes to it, I know, can we just have this in high res, or I can't wait to see the rest. Love the sneak peek.
Neil Redfern:But no, they're all amazing and I will say like I wasn't as familiar with Jason's work, but one of the shots that he took in particular, I was like gobsmacked by which was where he was doing a shutter drag, shot in the rain, outside with some street lights around, and it was just insanely amazing.
Helen Williams:It was so cool.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I can't wait to get that one printed.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I don't even know how. I've not thought of that. Or lots of us use shutter drag when on the dance floor, but I've never considered using it whilst shooting couples portraits.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I definitely want to do it, try it, and if I ever put it anywhere, if I ever do a video on it, it will always be the Vincent. I think I'd never seen it done before seeing Jason do it, and I just loved it. It was incredible and, yeah, huge Thank you. And ironically, I'll say, on the flip side, when it comes to Jesse Mora's pictures, I think my favorite is one that is very, quite simple, which again thought she's yours out of interest, and these are on. I'm sure if you look at Jesse Mora's and Jason's feed, you'll see these photos.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I think Jesse Mora's posted them in the Flash Masters members group as well. For those who are Flash Masters members, I really, really just love and this is going to be funny because out of all of them, it's the one I've got a bit of a chin on, which being a typical woman oh yeah, I am absolutely we in myself laughing and you can see your sort of proper chuckling in my ear.
Helen Williams:I remember, like Moira giving us a prompt. I had to remember what you said and but yeah, we're proper cracking up laughing and I think, oh, that's just us.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I love that one as well. It's very, very genuine. And my other favorite, I mean. I mean it's hard to choose because they're all stunning, yeah, but it's where we're just sat on the floor and Jesse was shooting through leaves, where he's broken like every rule in the book. Really, in terms of composition. We are so much to the top of the frame that we're almost cropped out and we're tiny in the frame, but I love it and the lighting is amazing. When he was taking that shot, I didn't think he was taking that composition and I, you know, I was thinking, oh, I think he's what he's doing, blah, blah, blah. But he was completely different and I love it. And it's relatively simple, but simple done so well.
Helen Williams:Yeah.
Neil Redfern:That you know, it's stunning. So how have? Our first experience with Jason, vincent and Jesse Morrill of Plant is is insane and we can't thank them enough. Yeah, and I do feel like when we left there, I'm not going to say we're going to enjoy having our photograph taken, but I do think it gave us a new level of not confident, but like I don't, we wouldn't feel that way again. Yes, and a lot of that goes down to how well Jesse, amira and Jason, I think, communicated with us, made us feel at ease, and also it definitely helps that we know that, because these are three of the best in the world they are just make sure we do our role, because these are gonna be epic.
Neil Redfern:It's not like we're thinking, oh, this is not gonna be look very good, we know it's gonna look good. But, we just need to try and do our part.
Helen Williams:Yeah, that was something that sort of spurred me on in terms of my general negativity or lack of self-confidence the entire time being in front of the camera. But trusting the photographers who are photographing you really sort of helped and supported me and there were certain times, you know, jason was like quick, it's raining. Oh, I love that. Are we sprinting out?
Neil Redfern:Another lesson for everyone. We knew that Jason wanted to do this shot in the rain of us and again, what he did there was amazing, because he took like three or four different styles of images without moving us and without him really moving just through three or four different techniques.
Neil Redfern:I won't explain what they all are. They don't give away all Jason's tricks, but it was like that's very, very, very clever, anyway. But we knew that he wanted this shot of us in the rain. Then he'd obviously gone out to check. He then came in and said, right, go, go, go, it's raining. And I think both of them fed off that enthusiasm oh, wow, and that excitement that Jason was giving off. And again, it's another little lesson. You know, if we've got a couple and we're like, oh, it's raining, I want to get them out, or don't go up to him and say, oh, can I ask a very cheeky favor? Would you mind maybe coming out for a vote of the rain? Just go, my God, guys, it's raining. This is going to be incredible. We've got to go now. I can't wait for this, because that changes how we feel as well, we were practically sprinting.
Neil Redfern:Yeah.
Helen Williams:Quick, let's get out. We loved it and obviously as photographers we kind of knew that he was going to do something epic and it would be worth it. But yeah, we definitely fed off his enthusiasm there, so I think that's quite important too.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, and then the other. Just another last little thing that I've learned, when it's his, more for Moira and Jesse, how well they work as a team, because communication is so important in portraits. You know a lot of the shots with Jesse and Moira, the reason that we love them. I mean, don't get me wrong, like compositions are epic, they're beautiful, they're all going around the wall, but it's how much we're laughing and interacting with each other. And that is more down to Jesse taking the shot, doing the composition, but Moira's doing the lighting and the communicating with us.
Neil Redfern:And it's almost like we're in like a special movie, if it was wrestling and she knows when Jesse wants to laugh and all that sort of thing and we're more or less just interacting with Moira whilst Jesse's in the background and you forget even how you photograph taken sometimes because you just think about what Moira is saying. Yeah, they're random dad jokes, yeah, yeah nuts and bolts, but it really made me realize how important that is the whole communication, the interaction with your couple, making them feel at ease, because you forget that you're posing.
Helen Williams:So many golden nuggets, taking from an experience that I was absolutely dreading. Like I said, we have more than just our random selfies. Now we're going to be able to decorate the house with photos of ourselves and look like we love each other. We love ourselves very much.
Neil Redfern:And one last thing. I've just thought of this now. I don't know how many shots we'll end up getting from Jason and Jesse and Moira. Whatever it is, we're extremely grateful. I don't feel they need to have too many either. I would much prefer to have, say, three or four from each of them and love those three or four, then think, oh no, where are the rest? I want 20, I want 30. It's not a numbers game.
Neil Redfern:That's very good points, but I think sometimes on a wedding day we feel like we've not got enough. Yeah, but it's better sometimes, I think, just to think right. I know what this couple are like. I know that they're booking me for my images, I know that they trust him what I do. I'd better just spend in a little bit longer getting two or three shots that I'm really really happy with and perfecting than I am running around right all the time trying to get 10. Just another little thing I remember thinking, because when I look back at those, I immediately think of which one's gonna be printing the others. It doesn't really matter so much. We want the ones on the wall. They're the ones that we're gonna be looking at.
Neil Redfern:So it's not like we're needing loads. So again, just something else to maybe think about.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it's certainly got our brains sort of wearing in the cogs turning, isn't it? It's been an incredible learning experience and, yeah, I'd really quite like to maybe do their workshop from the other side and actually attend.
Neil Redfern:Oh, I would definitely do it, yeah, if they ever come back, or maybe we could go there, who knows?
Helen Williams:Yeah let's go to America and let's do Jesse Meyers and Jason's workshop over there. We're Christian.
Neil Redfern:I mean poof, yeah, it makes you real Again. If you're listening to this, if you haven't done this workshop, I will say in the US, chris and Cardona's added on, which just makes it. I can't even get my head round how amazing that is as a workshop trio. But the passion that Jason, moira and Jessie showed as well because that workshop ran, I think from. I mean I dropped them off in the morning, then came back, I think I dropped them off at like nine and I think the workshop finished. What was it? Nine PM.
Helen Williams:Might have been. I think it might have been 10.
Neil Redfern:10? Either way, I mean wow, the value that you would have got if you went on that workshop was incredible. I mean incredible 12 hours, we're guessing of three of the best photographers in the world being an open book. So if you are ever on the fence or you ever get the chance to go on a workshop either Moira and Jessie together, or Jason on his own, or the three of them, or the three of them plus Christian just go, don't think about it. Go because, trust us, they give you everything and it's testament to their passion for education. They could have left four, five hours earlier. No one would have complained, no one would have even probably given it a second thought, but they didn't. They stayed until they'd given everything they wanted to, which, again, it's testament to their passion to helping other photographers.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I think they literally went until the venue were like you need to leave.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, exactly, exactly no, it's amazing. The other thing which happened I can't remember at what point it came up in conversation during the workshop, but somebody was asking Jason a question and Jason's response was I'll tell you tomorrow at nine dots, and then the reply back was no, nine dots isn't tomorrow. Nine dots is Tuesday, wednesday, not one day in Tuesday, but looks like I've got a free day tomorrow then, and then half an hour later Jason comes up to us both and says well, looks like I'm free tomorrow. Would you like to do a shoot tomorrow? I had planned, but he immediately said yes, because how often we're gonna get a chance to have Jason Vincent take our portraits twice. So we did that and that was an experience. I'll let you explain what happened there?
Helen Williams:Oh dear Lord. Well, I don't think. Well, at that point everyone's just so busy. You know, I was trying to prep for nine dots. Obviously Jason was very busy with traveling and teaching a workshop and doing nine dots, and the nine dots he did not one, but two different sort of slots. So I don't think any of us had even looked at what the weather might be or what we were going to do. So, of course, as soon as he asked, we were like, yes, let's do it. And obviously we then got ready on the day and then we said, oh, that's, we're gonna give a shout out to you, mam, and your auntie. So we told you, mam, oh, we're shooting with Jason, we're planning to go to X location.
Neil Redfern:Oh, birrum Rocks. Birrum Rocks yes, anybody, that's in the UK. If you ever want to go somewhere, that's really spectacular scenery wise, in North Yorkshire there's a place called Birrum Rocks B-R-I-M-H-A-M Rocks just Google it. It's amazing and that's where I wanted us to go.
Helen Williams:Yeah. So we spoke to your mum and, caught up over night, said this is where we're going, and I'm very grateful actually that your mum then spoke to your auntie and went oh, it went round the family.
Neil Redfern:It went round the family. They went models, professional models. Now the great bang was hot.
Helen Williams:Yes, professional models for these world's famous photographers. And then, thankfully or randomly, your auntie Googled it and was like they've closed it. Today there's a storm coming it was terrible weather. And none of us were really expecting this storm, or in the morning it was bright sunshine. So yeah, thankfully we found out through the great five minute of Neil's family that the place we were meant to shoot was gonna be closed.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, that's a shame.
Helen Williams:Because it was a national trust property, the car park would be shut, et cetera. It was like close to the public. So then we started Googling, found somewhere else, picked up Jason, and literally about 10 minutes before we arrived, the rain started. And is it like the rain? The?
Neil Redfern:wind. We went to a place called Cowan Carf, which is actually a real place. It sounds like some sort of pub or something sort of, yeah, up on the wild and windy moors.
Helen Williams:Yes, they're wild and windy every day, let alone like was this storm.
Neil Redfern:Debbie, or Whether in hikes or in the background. Yeah, debbie, I think.
Helen Williams:Was it Debbie or Demi Debbie, Debbie, I don't know Her name was Deborah Deborah. Is that a song?
Neil Redfern:Yes, yeah. So oh, at this point actually we should jump in and say a big hello hopefully she's listening to our new friend, a new Flashmasters member and your partner in crime.
Helen Williams:So many ways Two.
Neil Redfern:Natalie.
Helen Williams:Natalie Morton. Welcome to Flashmasters and thank you for all of your help and encouragement. To get very drunk later on, anyway.
Neil Redfern:I don't know who was who.
Helen Williams:It was a bad influence out of you two, oh my, I think we're as bad as each other. So yeah.
Neil Redfern:so Natalie was attendee at Jessie Mara and Jason's workshop and we got chatting to her and then when Jason was saying to us, oh, would you like to shoot tomorrow? I think Natalie heard that and said, oh, can I come along? I was like, yeah, of course. So there was four of us went to this on this stupidly crazy expedition up into the hills when this storm was going on. I'm just so grateful that Natalie was there, because wow we needed her help.
Neil Redfern:We really did, and hats off to you as well, hats off to all of you. Actually, I had the easiest job of all, but like Jason for getting up there, because when we say windy, it was dangerously windy, say, another place nearby had been closed off because it was seemed as being too dangerous.
Helen Williams:I think this would have been closed off, except it wasn't privately owned, to actually close it's just a drive up and get on the rocks.
Neil Redfern:Yeah. So we went up to these rocks. Jason's there getting all his equipment out. He's thinking, oh, this is wild. Hats off to you, helen, because, especially wearing in mind that you were nervous about modeling the day before, you got into a flying dress, near naked on the top of a hill, nearly putting your live at risk by standing on the very slippy rock. And thank you to Natalie for helping you get into that red dress, because I want to know how you get into that dress or anything.
Helen Williams:No, I didn't know. Either that was one of the great I love just doing here, brain-silly things, things you look back on and go well, that was fun, or I'm glad I didn't die and I think that can go on to my that was fun and glad I didn't die list. Yeah, after we've done a few of our couple shots, et cetera. Jason had mentioned the day before oh, have you got a floaty dress? And I was like you could tell that we are not friends because I literally live in my pajamas and gym gear. I'm not someone who's got floaty dresses in my wardrobe. But then I remembered that last year Neil offered a recommendation from one of our ambassadors, elie Beguino. Chico bought some flying dresses from America and had them shipped over.
Helen Williams:I was like, oh, I don't have a floaty dress, I have a flying dress. And Jason was like yes, bring it. So we finished our little couple shoot and he got what he wanted and he's like right, do you want to put on the flying dress? And of course that was interesting because we're next to like quite a busy road. There was no way for me to get changed. We're literally in the middle of a proper storm and at this point we're talking like sideways sleep.
Neil Redfern:It wasn't even raining, it was sleep. We do have a video of this which I will post when this podcast comes out. I'll post it in the Flashbusters members group, then show you the images, but also the behind the scenes, and you'll see how crazy this wind was. Again. Remember, this is what was exaggerating Places nearby were being closed off. You couldn't go to them because they were deemed to be too dangerous, and we just so happened to find this. Like you say, there was no car park or something we could just get to it.
Helen Williams:Yeah. So we decided to stand on the edge of a cliff and basically strap me into a parachute. Yeah how'd you do? And basically, yeah, pretty much getting naked on the side of the moors next to the road with my boobs hanging out. So yeah, that was good fun but I survived. But that dress was absolutely wild and without Nathalita, who was blessed got walking up and down the rock she was grabbing onto the dress.
Helen Williams:She was helping me up and down, so she helped get me in my dress and then, for certain images, was holding onto the dress whilst it was obviously flapping around like an absolute sale off the back of me. Don't think it'd be possible without her?
Neil Redfern:No, it definitely wouldn't have been. And then to think what Eight hours later you're both sat in a McDonald's doorway, drunk, eating a burger. Yeah, whilst the brain was bouncing round us again.
Helen Williams:Yeah, honestly, I never met Natalie until the day before.
Neil Redfern:Oh, she was lovely.
Helen Williams:And as soon as we finished the shoot there was a pub nearby, so we went straight to the pub to have a drink to warm up and Neil sat there opposite Natalie and going I know what Helen's like when she's left in a company without alcohol.
Neil Redfern:Because this was the day I was gonna be there, but a few hours later, jason, natalie and Helen were all gonna go to the pre-registration or the registration night for nine dots, which is basically again another get-together, drunk night.
Helen Williams:Yes.
Neil Redfern:So I was just thinking please just like keep an eye on Helen, because she left her own devices. She's been known to have more than one prosecco at a time.
Helen Williams:We were buying it by the bar, baby, I know, and Natalie was just as bad as you.
Helen Williams:She was Actually yeah. So Neil was like just make sure Helen gets home, okay, keep an eye on Helen. She did. I said we stuck together and we walked to McDonald's and we were sat outside, literally in a doorway eating at McDonald's with the rain bouncing down, and then it stopped, but we stayed in different hotels. So, yeah, she had offered to walk me back to my hotel, but I was like if yours is there, I'm then gonna feel bad that you've got to walk back on your own. So we'll leave it here, say good night, and I'll get back to my hotel.
Neil Redfern:Thank you, I forgot.
Helen Williams:And then I just got lost.
Neil Redfern:Before we move on, I want to say hello to Natalie's dad, oh, which you remember in the car. Yes, of course I don't know his name, but Natalie was saying and this made me feel very old that when she was starting out with her dad used to watch my YouTube channel or something like that, yes, or followed me, or something. So, hello, natalie's dad. Yes, hello, mr Martin.
Helen Williams:Oh, yes, that might not be his name actually. No, maybe not.
Neil Redfern:Hello Natalie's dad.
Helen Williams:Yes, big shout out to him. It did make me giggle, because she was like when I started into photography he was trying to find young, trendy photographers for me to follow.
Neil Redfern:Never say trendy.
Helen Williams:But that was quite some time ago, so you're not quite so young or trendy these days.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, back in the olden days again, yeah, but anyway, yeah, that was our modeling experience at Nine Dot. So huge thank you again to Jesse and Moira and to Jason. We love the experience and we are so proud and honoured to have had our photographs taken by the three of you, who we honestly see to be the best in the world, and it's an amazing experience and we're very, very grateful.
Helen Williams:Yeah, unfortunately we've now knocked your mum, jackie Redfern, off the top of our list of our top photographers.
Neil Redfern:I know.
Helen Williams:Until now, it's literally selfies and photos. When your mum goes, stand together and then you do a proper channel bring smile.
Neil Redfern:Yeah.
Helen Williams:So yeah, sorry, Jackie.
Neil Redfern:So fast forwarding on. We now come to Nine Dots itself and Miss Helen Williams is speaking. Ooh, how do you feel in the lead up to your talk?
Helen Williams:Well, my talk was on the second day of Nine Dots and I will say the day one was an absolute roller coaster of emotions. To be honest, there's not actually a stage, but you're at the front. To be somewhere that you've wanted to be for a good number of years, where so many incredible photographers are speaking this year, so many incredible speakers have been before. To be included into the list of Nine Dots speakers was just completely overwhelming. So, on the first day, to have the likes of Fabio Morello, who's previously won fearless photographer of the year, to have Liam and Dom Shaw, who we absolutely love, from York Place Studios there They've just released a book which is absolutely amazing. But, yeah, so many of my heroes Jesse Amoyra, jason it was like these photographers are insane.
Helen Williams:So, yeah, that first day watching them all do their thing, I was a wreck, if I'm honest. I hated the first day of Nine Dots and the urge to run away and literally change my name or just flee the country was very, very high. However, I will say, kind of like when I was skydiving or all the other times and you were pushed so far out of your comfort zone and the terror that you feel before it when the morning came or as soon as I arrived at the venue we were at Northern Monkeen, leeds. It was just brewery, but as soon as I got there it kind of went away.
Neil Redfern:I will say, when I arrived on the Wednesday morning, the morning of your talk, to help you, I was expecting you to be much more nervous than you were. You seemed to have your game face on almost. Maybe like when you go shoot a wedding. Sometimes you know we all will go to a wedding feeling a bit of nerves and as soon as you get your camera out it sort of goes away. It felt a bit like that for you.
Helen Williams:Yeah, as soon as I got there, I was still quite nervous. I was still really lucky, though. When I walked in, the people who greeted me first were photographers I've known for a long time who were. Everyone there is so lovely and supportive. But, yeah, as soon as I walked back through the doors I felt a bit better. And then I will say, as soon as I put on my camera belt, so my spider harness, I think it is that's like your uniform. Yeah, as soon as I put that belt on. So far.
Neil Redfern:Kent's taken off his glasses and putting on his cape.
Helen Williams:Yeah, and then click, click, and I put my cameras on my hips. It was like, oh well, I'm photographer me now, or?
Neil Redfern:And you had a headset on.
Helen Williams:Oh, yes, and Britney.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, exactly, I think that makes you feel the part.
Helen Williams:Oh yeah, the moment they put that mic that comes around in front of your face like Madonna, britney style, I was like this is so cool and I thought that I looked really cool. And then I got loads of like photos and videos back from everyone and the headset went sort of like it clipped sort of just in front of your ears, it went around the back of your head and it pushed my hair either side of my ears. So for all the footage of like one of the greatest moments of my career.
Helen Williams:I have like pixie ears coming out of my hair.
Neil Redfern:Generative Phil.
Helen Williams:Yeah, I don't know whether you can do that on video, but yeah, oh no, not on video.
Neil Redfern:I thought I looked you know like cool.
Helen Williams:I was feeling confident. I like said I don't know where it came from, literally I don't know. The adrenaline kicked in or the moment arrived and you just it's fight or flight.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, you got no option but to deliver.
Helen Williams:Yeah and I thought, well, I can't stand there looking nervous. Everyone else who's spoken before me has absolutely smashed it, so there's no point me trying to. You know, I have got to look like I own this place and like I deserve my spot on the stage, despite how much in my head they were saying, helen, like you're a no one. You know, we've got fearless photographers of the year here. We've got like mega stars. You know how I struggled with the imposter syndrome and the negative beliefs. So they were there, but I don't know how, like I said, the moment I strapped my belt on and put my cameras on, it was go time. Just something switched and I thought, no, I need to look like. You know, people are here. They might not be here exactly to see me, but this is my opportunity to show what I do.
Helen Williams:And I will say, as soon as that happened, the nerves were gone and, yeah, I really, really, really enjoyed it.
Neil Redfern:So, for those that aren't aware, what were you actually doing there? What was your talk about?
Helen Williams:I was live shooting. We did have a little bit of a presentation at the start, but I was showing how I like family formals at weddings and showed three different types. So I showed how we'd set up bounce flash in back lit conditions. From there we went on to direct flash and then I showed how I do a composite. And then I will say that the feedback has been absolutely incredible.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, honestly, I've said it at the time, you did really really well. I was very impressed. I was nervous for you thinking, oh, I just hope that, like the first, I knew that if the first two or three minutes went well, you do fine, you'd enjoy it, and I do mean you actually enjoy it. But it needs that first two or three minutes just to go okay, and that might not even mean you do anything wrong. Could be the equipment failing, it could be the projects are not working. Whatever it would be, could be anything that throws you.
Neil Redfern:I thought I'll just get through the first two or three minutes, which you did, and then you were flying and you could tell that like you were enjoying it. And then at that point I knew you'd be fine because you were making jokes, everybody laughing, like you were running around, like there's lots of energy, because you're doing a live shoot. I think that really helps. You know you're not just staying static, you're running around, moving your lights down, setting things up, grabbing people out of the audience to be in your groups, making jokes for them. It was really really good. You were natural and I think you got the balance right between educating. You know you're delivering good content, giving good information, but also in a very entertaining way. Thank, you.
Neil Redfern:What I enjoyed the most was, for those that aren't aware, Helen did two half hour talks. It's not a long time at all.
Helen Williams:No.
Neil Redfern:I was barely breathing in order to fit everything in, and Jason Vincent was doing the other one. So then each of the groups swapped over, say, 50 photographers each time. Then for the second one, my job was supposed to be that to keep time, and because I knew and it also allowed me speaking to Dom outside, but because I knew that you were so comfortable, I then forgot to even set the timer going because I thought really, you're fine now. Yeah, you did a really really good job.
Neil Redfern:I was very impressed and I say, for my point of view, what was nice was seeing everyone gravitate to you at the end to speak to you, and then just seeing you getting all that praise, I hope helps you to see yourself in a different way or to help you to understand that you can give really good information. It genuinely helps people, and people also want to know. People love practical demonstrations like that, especially at this time of year. Let's face it, my God, like we're often shooting in caves, like there's no natural light. So knowing how to light things that are very important, like group shots you're gonna be looking back on for years and become heirlooms, is really important. So you're giving information that people need to understand and I think it was just lovely to see that that was the case, and the feedback you got instantly was nice.
Helen Williams:Yeah.
Neil Redfern:Different from online feedback.
Helen Williams:Yeah, it was very, very nice. And obviously, those who do know more about my background I was a high school drama teacher for nine years I do have a huge amount of experience in terms of standing up and delivering something and being entertaining. However, I've also been out of teaching just as long as I was in it. So, yeah, it did feel terrifying and I didn't necessarily bring the confidence with me that I should have had ahead of it.
Neil Redfern:But I will say as soon as I started it just came back. It did. But there's a difference between and it's like a power dynamic almost between you being a teacher teaching younger children. But like young adults, how old were they 13, 14?
Helen Williams:11 to 19.
Neil Redfern:Okay, so young adults who are there at school because they've got to be there and teaching those people, and you're the only one who's actually in that sort of arena, who's got the experience, who is the authority figure, the only one. Two, being in a room where you're full of photographers who are winning awards all over the place, who are leaders in the field, who are also fellow speakers, fellow educators. That's a different dynamic.
Neil Redfern:That's why it's great that having that background is useful, but it won't help you from a psychological point of view, because in your head, this is not you speaking to children. You're speaking to very, very talented photographers.
Helen Williams:Yeah, that bit was. It was very surreal to stop and just look around the room and to see the faces looking back at you that you know and that you admire, and then to actually be doing a composite group shot, with Jessie and Moira Laplante in the group shot and I'm like these are the king and queen of composites.
Helen Williams:They've been doing these shots for years. They have got it down to an absolute fine art and, to be honest, and I said to everyone at this point, I've only ever done four of them in terms of groups.
Neil Redfern:But you won last Saturday's wedding.
Helen Williams:I did. Oh, it's all. Yeah, it's all going on. So yeah, once you know the kind of techniques, and how to apply it and the structure and the process. That's yeah. Once you've got the process, it was fine and thankfully you know the shots that I took at nine dots, which were done so quickly.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, I mean you're talking seconds, maybe minutes.
Helen Williams:Yeah, absolutely, we rattled through those but thankfully they turned out really, really well, which is also a relief. But, yeah, to be doing and presenting a type of photography and a skill that you know the people they didn't invent it, but someone who's done it many more times and has taught you to then do it in front of them and other photographers that you absolutely love. It was a bit different from teaching some high school kids but, yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I survived and I will say as soon as I finished it it was like oh, when's the next one?
Neil Redfern:We're going to speak? Yeah, I was saying to Phoebe, we want to get you off the stage.
Helen Williams:Well, I hope not. I don't have anything else lined up, so if anyone else knows, I'll throw it out into the universe. I would like to continue to speak and educate, and have a Britney style mic and entertain everyone with my flashing antics.
Neil Redfern:My personal highlight, which was before your second talk and I'll see you know this, but I thought it was quite funny is I was speaking to Dom, dom McShaw, who was part of York Play Studios outside. We haven't seen him for quite a long time, so we were having a good chat about her book and we'll maybe talk about that in the future episode. Actually, because it's amazing, york Play Studios just released this incredible book on documentary photography and if you're not aware of Dom and Liam to me that they are, I mean I don't even know how you can describe how talented they are Very, very different to what Helen and I do, Completely different genre of wedding photography. They are documentary photographers and they shoot at like F8, f9. They're always looking at layering storytelling and their work belongs in a gallery. It is insanely good. I've long. We're both with long been admirers of them.
Neil Redfern:And I've been very lucky to have known them for years and they're the nicest people. So I was having a bit of a catch up with Dom. I should say as well, they don't really use flash. They don't use flash, it's just not their thing. And it just so happened.
Neil Redfern:I walked back into the room as you were talking about how I defy any natural light photographer to say that this shot is better than this one that's with flash. I'll fight you. And I think I've just walked in with one of the absolute best in the world. Natural light doesn't use flash photographers. And I just put my hands across to Dom's head this isn't for you, we apologize. And she was laughing her head off. So that was just something. I don't always remember the irony of the timing of that, but I will say as well. Liam of Dom's not partner, partner in photography, but also brother, came up to you afterwards and he was again very different style to you but was in awe of how well you presented and what you were delivering and couldn't believe that that was your first time speaking at a conference.
Helen Williams:Yeah, that was probably the highlight, if I'm honest.
Neil Redfern:I thought it's cute. Are you asking yourself who are they afterwards?
Helen Williams:Yeah, I was like, oh my goodness, it's Liam. I know I've met him briefly at another conference, but it was such a quick conversation and you have so many of these conversations or conferences that I knew he wouldn't have remembered me or have any sort of knowledge of me. Really, for him to make a beeline straight afterwards and give such incredible feedback.
Neil Redfern:Actually, it's important for everyone to know. Do you remember what his feedback to you was?
Helen Williams:Just that. Even though he doesn't use flash, he found it really entertaining that he learned a lot from it Exactly. And yet just that he could not believe that I'd never, ever spoken before, but I think it was also.
Neil Redfern:the other thing that I remember him talking about was like just the respect that you should always have for other photographers who are doing really well, even if it's not the same style as what you do. And that was really nice because, say myself and you shooting in a particular style as there's a lot of the flashmasses members, our ambassadors obviously we're all enjoying using off-camera for lighting. It's a big part of what we do, whereas for other photographers not just Dom and Liam, but others who shoot in a similar way, don't use flash as much or at all sometimes, but can still look at what you were doing and think, wow, that's really, really impressive. I take my heart off to you and they can still learn from that, just as we go and see Dom and Liam and like, oh my, that work that they're producing. How do you even see that? How do you get that moment at that time, that composition and all that stuff. I can't shoot like that.
Helen Williams:No, I'd love to.
Neil Redfern:Yeah, as I would, but I just can't do it. My brain doesn't work like their brains work, and I have so much respect for them, even though I know I can't do that and I don't want to shoot that way. And that's what I think is the important lesson like to always be respectful. There is no right or wrong. There are lots of different genres, lots of different styles, but we can all be very respectful towards each other. And that's what I took away from what you were saying to you, and I thought it's a really lovely gesture to come over.
Helen Williams:It really, really was. And yeah, it's funny hearing you say that, while I basically threatened to fight anyone, you disagreed. The flash wasn't better than natural light. But in certain circumstances I'm gonna die on that hill like and I'm not a fighter at all I would literally run screaming for the hills. But yeah, no, I do believe that, obviously and well, I don't need to tell people, listen to a flash masses podcast A high ASO or a 1.2 sort of lens isn't gonna make up for bad light.
Neil Redfern:It's not for you, is it? That's the thing? No, brilliant. Well, I was actually well done. Again, you did really really well. You honestly you exceeded anything that I thought you would be doing. I thought I knew you'd do well, but you were really really good. And I will say, we're not the top of it now, but I am going to make it my mission now to make sure that you understand how much you've got to give and that you actually take that forward in terms of mentoring, your own workshop, maybe Either way, going forward with your own education, because that's the next stage for you, and it was obvious how much we enjoyed it, what a buzz you got from it and how well you taught. People were loving it, and I know you've had inquiries since, yeah, about whether you do mentoring or one-to-one sessions, whatever. So make sure I'll say we'll maybe catch up on this in future podcast episodes that you do go forward with that, because I know that you'd enjoy it.
Helen Williams:No, I will 100% things will start moving. I've got irons very cool in fires at the moment. But yeah, things will be happening and I'll push forward with that in the near future.
Neil Redfern:Good stuff, well as always. If you'd like to join us in the Flashmasters community, you can do so at flashmastersco. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time.
Helen Williams:Don't forget to keep flashing.
